Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Additional Resources


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > Legacy Products > Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-28-2010, 07:02 AM
relaxo relaxo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,533
Default DAW DSP Handling-Start Over+TOTALLY Rethink (Beyond Freeze Track)

CURRENT DSP MANAGEMENT CONCEPTS:

Muscle muscle muscle. That's absolutely not the ideal road. Like is so often the case, the best solution lies out of the box, with brain, not brawn. It doesn't need to be about expensive hardware cards or Eleven or RTAS racks or Receptors, distributed computing nodes, 16 core computers, rewriting VIs to be super efficient, native vs dedicated DSP, blah blah blah.

The CPU struggle can be won with improvements in software under-the-hood workflow methodology. Most computers that we use can push at least 60-160 tracks of audio. You spend a bit more for 120 or 160 tracks. Fine, we're good there.

AUTOMATIC BACKGROUND RENDERING ("Beyond Freeze Track")

Ultimately, the only plug in that needs to be, and therefore should be active, is THE ONE YOU'RE EDITING and those affected by that plug-in. Everything else can, and should be, audio. Unfreezing (reactivating a plugin and removing the rendered audio track) takes a split second. So, as soon as you're finished adjusting a plug-in or instrument track, the computer automatically, invisibly and seamlessly starts background renering the chain of plugins that were just unfrozen due to the adjustment of the primary plugin. A track that is a candidate for freezing simply gets frozen in the background as it is played back normally, and transparently unfrozen as it or its channel processing is changed. (The programmers would have to have very careful quality assurance supervision to make sure this worked smoothly and invisibly to the user of course. With correctly designed automatic background rendering, all plugins would appear to the users as always being active and ready to go, as if they had never been deactivated and rendered.)

Put any kind, but successful and efficient, automatic plugin rendering into PT9 and we can all resurrect our old powerless G5s again...audio-only with only a handful of plug ins active and/or rendering. Want to run unlimited massive compressors and reverbs, VIs and samplers all at once, each instrument at 3GB RAM? (totaling 240GB of RAM) Not a problem.

We don't need more CPU, efficient plug in coding, distributed computing, RTAS boxes, Receptors, Vienna and all of that old school design. Each of those solutions is design based on force and/or reducing required force. We need intelligent design. This is the path all DAWs need to head...the ONLY path to everlasting DAW freedom possible within modern and foreseeable technological constraints.

Sooner or later the battle of the DAWs will be won not in hardware releases, but in the software design brilliance. Avid, you already have the best DAW, now send it to the moon and back, humiliate your competition.



Further reading for those interested:

Automatic Non-Realime Printing - The correct solution is to turn demanding plugins like reverbs and compressors etc and VIs into audio, automatically, seamlessly, painlessly, quickly and automatically deactivate the plugin and without the huge hassles of printing chaos, making twice as many tracks and naming, deactivating tracks hiding etc etc PITA old school printing. And then back again in a split second when you need to edit the track or plug in settings. We have audio rendering already in PT, it's called Audiosuite, but the seamless workflow is not there with Audiosuite. But this workflow has been made far superior on most other major DAWs and it's called Freeze Track. You turn CPU intensive plugins into simple audio tracks. Your plugin and VI count literally becomes limitless. TDM systems can't touch this. When your CPU is loaded down, you don't buy a Muse Receptor, VEPro, clustered computers, a faster computer or an RTAS rack, you freeze in 15 seconds or less and unfreeze in 1/15 second.

We don't need to have a 100 plugins active at once (hello?...MASSIVE DSP waste) we only need the ONE that we're currently editing & those affected by it like reverbs and delays, etc. All the rest should be audio tracks. Make plugin>audio track>plugin rapid, seamless, automatic and easy in THE SOFTWARE. Automatic rendering is the simplest, quickest and best plug-in DSP solution now and in far into the future. So, this battle is already won, you know that...it's just not implemented yet in DAWs.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-28-2010, 07:18 AM
jeremyroberts jeremyroberts is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: New York, NY, USA
Posts: 3,020
Default Re: DAW DSP Handling-Start Over+TOTALLY Rethink (Beyond Freeze Track)

Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxo View Post
InUltimately, the only plug in that needs to be, and therefore should be active, is THE ONE YOU'RE EDITING. Everything else can, and should be, audio. Unfreezing takes less than a second. So, as soon as you're finished adjusting a plug in or instrument track, the computer automatically, invisibly and seamlessly starts background freezing it. A track that is a candidate for freezing simply gets frozen in the background as it is played back normally, and transparently unfrozen as it or its channel processing is changed. (The programmers would have to have very careful quality assurance supervision to make sure this worked smoothly and invisibly to the user of course.)
Final Cut Pro has been doing background rendering for years. This is not a new concept, but YES, it is something that should be present in our DAW.

We continue to discuss "freeze tracks" - but may I propose that we begin to call it what it really is: RENDERING. And the rendering should be automatic, and seamless to the user. I think your idea and proposal is VERY, VERY SMART and if Avid engineering has not considered this, they should hire you as a consultant.

Since I first started messing with Final Cut, I've been posting that there are many really cool workflow concepts in FCP that Digi should "borrow" from for ProTools -- background rendering is just one of many.

Hopefully, someone at Avid will read this and do something about it.
__________________
--Jeremy
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-28-2010, 08:11 AM
TheHopiWay TheHopiWay is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: NW USA
Posts: 70
Default Re: DAW DSP Handling-Start Over+TOTALLY Rethink (Beyond Freeze Track)

Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxo View Post
..........Ultimately, the only plug in that needs to be, and therefore should be active, is THE ONE YOU'RE EDITING. Everything else can, and should be, audio. Unfreezing takes less than a second. So, as soon as you're finished adjusting a plug in or instrument track, the computer automatically, invisibly and seamlessly starts background freezing it. A track that is a candidate for freezing simply gets frozen in the background as it is played back normally, and transparently unfrozen as it or its channel processing is changed. (The programmers would have to have very careful quality assurance supervision to make sure this worked smoothly and invisibly to the user of course.)..........
I can attest that when MOTU implemented this several years ago in DP it dramatically changed the CPU resources available on larger projects. The "always run in realtime" option that's available on a plug in by plug in allows the user the best of all worlds.
I prefer PT HD over other native platforms but they do seem to drag their heels in keeping up with the functions and options available in the more innovative DAWS.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-03-2010, 07:33 PM
John_Toolbox's Avatar
John_Toolbox John_Toolbox is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,274
Default Re: DAW DSP Handling-Start Over+TOTALLY Rethink (Beyond Freeze Track)

This is a brilliant idea. All that needs to happen under the hood is the offline render, and then each track has 2 playlists, the one with the effects and the one without the effects. The software toggles between them if you're changing the settings. You would need to be able to turn this off and on manually per track depending on your needs. In my case I bus everything to one reverb, if that was setup like this it would be re-rendering every time I tweak anything., much more DSP/CPU usage than just leaving the reverb on all the time.
__________________
- John

If a MIDI event triggers a sample of a tree falling and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-03-2010, 07:59 PM
FajitaTone FajitaTone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,239
Default Re: DAW DSP Handling-Start Over+TOTALLY Rethink (Beyond Freeze Track)

when you mix on an control surface, several effects need to be "unfrozen" at once, because you are in effect editing ALL of them. That needs to be addressed.
__________________
Ray Trujillo
Freelance Audio Engineer
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-04-2010, 06:29 PM
John_Toolbox's Avatar
John_Toolbox John_Toolbox is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,274
Default Re: DAW DSP Handling-Start Over+TOTALLY Rethink (Beyond Freeze Track)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FajitaTone View Post
when you mix on an control surface, several effects need to be "unfrozen" at once, because you are in effect editing ALL of them. That needs to be addressed.
A G4 will have a problem with that maybe, but current i7/nehalem architecture computers can easily handle this. An i7-920 PC with 12GB of RAM can be bought for around $1000 these days. My guess is that if you can afford a control surface, you can afford one of these, or a mac pro(entry level mac pros are basically the same specs, with the exception of using more expensive server components and coming with less RAM.
__________________
- John

If a MIDI event triggers a sample of a tree falling and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-06-2010, 07:49 AM
James Drake James Drake is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 592
Default Re: DAW DSP Handling-Start Over+TOTALLY Rethink (Beyond Freeze Track)

appart from the fact that the pro tools mixer is an actual mixer running third party processing in real time is the main asset of an hd rig
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-06-2010, 01:04 PM
dcboucher dcboucher is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: LA, CA 90025
Posts: 94
Default Re: DAW DSP Handling-Start Over+TOTALLY Rethink (Beyond Freeze Track)

How would this work on auxes with plugs? Seems like there are many instances of groups of tracks feeding the same aux that would have to be live all the time.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-06-2010, 01:20 PM
Wireline Wireline is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Midland TX
Posts: 141
Default Re: DAW DSP Handling-Start Over+TOTALLY Rethink (Beyond Freeze Track)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcboucher View Post
How would this work on auxes with plugs? Seems like there are many instances of groups of tracks feeding the same aux that would have to be live all the time.
and how would it work when using external effects?
__________________
Ken Morgan
Midland, TX
It Doesn't Matter What I Did Then - What I Do Now Is What's Important
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-06-2010, 02:52 PM
bashville bashville is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 1,122
Default Re: DAW DSP Handling-Start Over+TOTALLY Rethink (Beyond Freeze Track)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcboucher View Post
How would this work on auxes with plugs? Seems like there are many instances of groups of tracks feeding the same aux that would have to be live all the time.
Multiply the issue times whatever with parallel processing. I can still imagine it, and you could still get away with less hardware, probably, but maybe you'd still need all your stems and auxes to be done in real-time all the time. Or just be prepared for your system to get very bogged-down every once in a while when you start messing around with some aspect of your routing.

Then there's the other issue that Avid is no way in hell going to go down a path that leads to selling less hardware. They're not going to care if other DAW software blows away LE. LE is just a path to getting people to trade up to HD. As long as they can tell people that by using LE they're in the same league as the big boys, then it makes sense for them to sell LE. It still comes down to monopolizing the systems that are used in working studios. And that they've got down. If they start losing that, then maybe you'll see some changes.

It's not the software, it's the hardware!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Should rethink a mac software? tamasdragon VENUE Live Sound Systems 14 06-02-2010 07:16 AM
protools 7.4 freeze during start up cozy 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 4 04-04-2008 09:51 AM
Mac Pro Start Up Freeze Problem Sander DJ Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 2 10-13-2007 10:06 AM
pro tools freeze during start up crb 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 5 09-15-2006 12:38 AM
Mac freeze on start-up...????!!!!!!@#$% Katzenhammer Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 10 03-26-2001 01:01 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:56 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com