LE to HD quality difference

[masterduk]

Originally Posted by TOM@METRO

masterduk, You have supplied unsurpassed entertainment for us over here , and I thank you for that. I look forward to more in the future. We have enjoyed this no end,

Thanks again

you have no idea, do you?

remember, i know you. you're the guy with the little demo studio in the valley.

[John_Toolbox]

Would someone please send masterduk some flowers. Clearly nobody loves him.

[Shan]

Originally Posted by masterduk

for the original poster's information, i should add that one of the things that an le system cannot do at all is properly align your tracks during recording and overdubbing. that is something that does affect the initial recording / conversion, and it is entirely lacking on pro tools le [no matter what third party stuff you try to graft onto it].

Originally Posted by masterduk

and you are not even addressing the problem of the tracks not even being initially recorded with proper alignment in le.

Originally Posted by masterduk

no, you are completely wrong. i am not talking about adc in the way you are referring to it. i am saying that the le software does not properly compensate fort the input and output conversion latencies, and therefore you will never get accurate overdubs.

Once again, you're posting more uninformed misinformation and YOU are the one being completely wrong. LE does and always has, even on the 001, compensated for the delays induced by the audio interface conversion after a record pass. This so called problem you invented and which doesn't exist, is all addressed for you right there.

Print a click track, route it out of the hardware and back in. Crank the buffer up to 1024. Record the input signal on a new audio track. Since the buffer is at 1024 you will definitely hear the lag and delay during recording. Hit stop. Hit play and zoom in to see perfectly compensated audio.

Where are you getting all this false info from?

Shane

[masterduk]

Originally Posted by Shan

Once again, you're posting more uninformed misinformation and YOU are the one being completely wrong. LE does and always has, even on the 001, compensated for the latency of the input/output conversions. This so called problem you invented and which doesn't exist, is all addressed for you right there.

Print a click track, route it out of the hardware and back in. Crank the buffer up to 1024. Record the input signal on a new audio track. Since the buffer is at 1024 you will definitely here the lag and delay during recording. Hit stop. Hit play and zoom in to see perfectly compensated audio.

Where are you getting all this false info from?

Shane

uh uh, you're wrong. and, if you look at the screenshot you posted, you can see that the transients are not actually aligned. you need to zoom in a bit closer, don't you? but even in the lousy screenshot you posted you can see that the two hits are not aligned with sample accuracy.

and anyhow, you are talking about compensation for buffer delays, but there are hardware latencies also.

there are threads about this, by this way, so i am not really saying anything that you couldn't have already learned about.

the following is from the digidesign pro tools reference guide [not too clearly written, but it does clearly state that the feature is only present in pro tools hd, and not in pro tools le].

"Compensation for Input Delays After Record Pass
(Input Page, Pro Tools HD Only) Provides automatic
compensation for any analog or digital input
delay with Digidesign audio interfaces. Enable
this option for all recording situations.
When recording from a digital source, both the
Compensation for Input Delays After Record Pass
and the Compensation for Output Delays After
Record Pass options must be enabled.

Compensation for Output Delays After Record
Pass (Output Page, Pro Tools HD Only) Provides
automatic compensation for any analog or digital
output delay with Digidesign audio interfances.
Enable this option when you are synchronized
to an external clock source. When
recording from a digital source, both the Compensation
for Input Delays After Record Pass and
the Compensation for Output Delays After Record
Pass options must be enabled." [emphasis added].

moreover, since the feature only works with digidesign interfaces, even if it did work with le [which it doesn't], you would be forced to use the lower quality digi le converters.

you guys just refuse to accept reality because you can't bear the thought that what you have is not up to par.

all companies have different quality tiers, and it is unreasonable for you to expect a company to sell its bargain, entry level products with the same features and attributes as its more expensive, flagship product. there is nothing wrong with that. they are giving you an upgrade path. or you could use logic, or any number of things.

[Mt.Everest]

I'll preface this by saying if what you are using works, and works well, and does exactly what you need and you don't feel like you have a hand tied behind your back often, and results sound good to you, then stick with it. LE or HD.
For example, I see no need to upgrade to Leopard/Intel since my Tiger/PPC system works great and I can deliver exactly what clients want at the speed and quality they want, while working at the speed and getting the quality results I want as well.

However, I will say this: I recently needed a 2nd room setup. I REALLY gave it a go with my LE system. I tried and tried to deal with the work arounds and limitations. Latency issues, buffer managing, monitor managing (for me and for the cues), i/o options, and so on -

I could NOT make it happen. Not only did quality suffer (IN THE END), but workflow did too. I needed to get my HD system back in that room. I couldn't use the 002 as a monitor section alone or even with an external mixer for added flexibility. I couldn't keep up with what you need to consider when using LE if you are recording one minute, mixing the next, recording the next, mixing the next and so on. The talent's " quality " suffered too.

The " I-miss-this" list was immense - hardware inserts, ease (ha, sort of) of ADC, set and forget buffer settings, track counts, tons of busses, ENABLING INPUT MONITORING DURING PLAYBACK ON ANOTHER TRACK TO HEAR THE TALENT SPEAKING TO ME WHILE THEIR TRACK IS IN REC-READY, PLAYING BACK A TAKE.... Ya know, the infamous missing green ' I ' button in LE. And the many other subtle, (but MAJOR to me) yet quite crippling aspects of LE to keep it a " Limited Edition ". " QUALITY " is not just gear based - it is directly affected by everything that happens from minute one to day 100 of said project as well.

But this is because, for my work flow and my clients' workflow, I need the things HD does that LE doesn't. I was constantly saying " hold on a minute ", or the dreaded " no, I can't do that; no I can't create a new track until you give me 5 to bounce some stuff down ". Did it sound as good tho? I can't say. I couldn't wait that long to find out cuz all the other aspects of " quality " were suffering.

But thats me. This thread became a total pissng match about MY LE can do everything YOUR HD can do. Or LE is for the amateur and HD is for the pros. And its all kind of pointless.
Does what you have do what you need it to do and do it reliably?
Do you tear out hair cursing the L.E. of LE?
Are you worried you may waste good money on an HD system you don't really need?
Does it sound good to you and your clients?
Those are the valid things to ask yourself in your specific situation.

So to be back on topic, the OP asked:

1: with the exception of the AD converter. Is there any other difference in the QUALITY of the recordings between a 003 and HD if the recording is at same bit/sample rates.


2: Is there any difference in the QUALITY between native plugs and TDM plugs? Or is it just, one is internal processing and the other is host based.


3: can’t I get an apogee or top end ADC and get away with HD quality on my 003?

I didn't read every page of this thread, but that is way too broad a question. 1, 2, & 3 are all the same question really; Will exchanging an 003 and LE for an HD1 make exactly what you are doing now SOUND better? Maybe. Maybe not. Too much is involved from recording instrument 1 to printing Final Mix 101. Why don't you try it out before dropping ?$$$? Bring the mics/non PT gear you use to a studio with HD for a day or two and mimic what you do day to day. (Even mimic the live room you normally record in)

Record, edit, edit more, do overdubs, pre-mix, edit more, record more, mix again, do that last minute OD just before you were ready to print you final mix.
Did it sound better? Was your workflow faster, easier, or more creative? Were there " wow " moments where you used a feature of the non-LE PT software that you can't live without, now that you know they exist?

Ok so thats big picture stuff. To be more blunt, will going out an getting an HD1+inteface+TDM plugins make what you do now with 003/LE sound like a whole new world? Probably not Im guessing. Its ALLLL the little in between stuff, that added up, might change your life & quality using HD. But there is no answer till you try it.
Its not simply, yes, a BMW will drive faster and nicer than a Pinto and the quality difference is cut and dry. If you're only concern is about off the shelf bare bones quality, as an 003 sits in a showroom next to HD1 & a 192, your thought process is too limited. You need to expand your inquiry based on what you achieve now and if EVERYTHING HD offers might improve upon that- not just converters and TDM plugins- those things are a smallll piece of the puzzle.

So like I said, see if you can try a day or a week using HD to do what you normally do, and you won't need us to make a decision for you. Oh, and read those sections in the manual that begin with (For HD systems ONLY). I can't live without most of em. :)

MT

[Shan]

Originally Posted by masterduk

uh uh, you're wrong. and, if you look at the screenshot you posted, you can see that the transients are not actually aligned. you need to zoom in a bit closer, don't you? but even in the lousy screenshot you posted you can see that the two hits are not aligned with sample accuracy.

You appear to be coming across as trolling here which violates the DUC Terms of Use by the way. If you're not and actually being serious, then I really don't need to say much as your rebuttals and misinformation you continue to post even after being corrected says it all. What it really appears to be though is your misunderstanding on a few things you've been posting and your lack of willingness to actually look and acquire the knowledge first hand yourself. I'm not quoting you and posting replies to intentionally make you wrong here. I and the many others here are correcting all your obvious misinformation that your posting regarding both LE and HD. I've been using LE and HD for well over 10 years now and I can assure you, the hardware always has, since day one when LE was released in 1999, been compensated for the input/output hardware latency including the optical ports.

Originally Posted by masterduk

and anyhow, you are talking about compensation for buffer delays, but there are hardware latencies also.

Again, your lack of knowledge regarding LE shows with every post you continue to make. The hardware input/output in LE is not separated from the H/W buffer like it is in HD. The H/W buffer in LE controls the hardware input-to-output monitoring latency on record arm tracks. This is not the case with HD. The hardware input-to-output latency in HD is completely separate and it's latency is not controlled by the H/W buffer at all. This is one of the genius features that gave HD the upper hand for many many years but is no longer the case now, as a mere i7 has enough power and overhead that the buffer can stay permanently at 32 or 64. This permanent low buffer results in the same low hardware latency as HD now without producing errors or distortions, unlike the slower computer systems from years gone by. This amazing native power was bound to happen but it actually happened 4 years ago.

Originally Posted by masterduk

there are threads about this, by this way, so i am not really saying anything that you couldn't have already learned about.

There have been a few threads over the past 10 years where a bug was discovered(and later fixed multiple times btw) in which the input-to-output compensation in LE was being overcompensated and actually moved early. In the 5.x era it was 11 or so samples on PC. I'm the one who made one of the numerous posts regarding this in years gone by.

Originally Posted by masterduk

the following is from the digidesign pro tools reference guide [not too clearly written, but it does clearly state that the feature is only present in pro tools hd, and not in pro tools le]..

Again, what you're quoting is for HD and I already said it all in the above regarding the H/W buffer and how it relates to the input-to-output in LE.

Originally Posted by masterduk

"Compensation for Input Delays After Record Pass
(Input Page, Pro Tools HD Only) Provides automatic
compensation for any analog or digital input
delay with Digidesign audio interfaces. Enable
this option for all recording situations.
When recording from a digital source, both the
Compensation for Input Delays After Record Pass
and the Compensation for Output Delays After
Record Pass options must be enabled.

Compensation for Output Delays After Record
Pass (Output Page, Pro Tools HD Only) Provides
automatic compensation for any analog or digital
output delay with Digidesign audio interfances.
Enable this option when you are synchronized
to an external clock source. When
recording from a digital source, both the Compensation
for Input Delays After Record Pass and
the Compensation for Output Delays After Record
Pass options must be enabled." [emphasis added].

There are numerous non updated errors throughout all the Digidesign documentation. It has taken a small handful of folks at Digi HQ to bring it to the current level that it's at now and they still acknowledge the fact that many areas are behind, can be updated, and even typos fixed etc. Just on the subject of "HD Only" features alone, there are numerous errors still present in the Pro Tools Reference Guide including the Keyboard Shortcuts Guide among many other documents:

• HD Only
• Needs a manual update

• HD Only
• Needs a manual update

• HD Only
• Needs a manual update

• HD Only
• Needs a manual update

• HD Only
• Needs a manual update

...and more endless updates needed regarding features that are no longer HD only.

The above HD only feature you quoted is not the case in this situation though and not an error in the manual. What you're quoting here is an option that can be enabled or disabled in HD only. LE doesn't have the option to enable or disable it because it's always on and always has been since LE was released in 1999. I can understand how one can read this and quickly assume that LE might not have this feature at all just because the check-box isn't present in LE, but It is the ability to enable or disable the feature that is HD only, not the feature itself. It is always on in LE as the H/W buffer is linked to the input-to-output monitoring latency and cannot be disabled. In HD these two features are completely separate from one another. You have a misunderstanding on this(among many of your other posts above) and are quite simply posting your continued misunderstanding without looking at what myself and others have shown you or even investigated yourself to acquire this knowledge first hand.

Originally Posted by masterduk

you guys just refuse to accept reality because you can't bear the thought that what you have is not up to par.

All the individuals here who have corrected your inaccurate and misinformation regarding both HD and LE work on both systems and both platforms

I'm not quoting you with the intention to make you wrong here with some biased fixation that LE is superior to HD which appears to be the case with you. I am(and others here) simply correcting your very obvious misinformation you've been posting regarding both HD and LE. I use both HD and LE on both Mac and PC. It's my job. Others here who've been correcting your misinformation not only use both, but they actually own both HD and LE including both Mac and PC. Now those are definitely fanboys and Digidesign/Pro Tools supporters if you ask me. You really do need to look at all this deeper to sort out your misunderstandings and acquire the knowledge first hand instead of hearsay.

Shane

[Drew Mazurek]

How is it you guys have time for this nonsense??

Can I borrow some?

[danander11]

Originally Posted by dmazurek

How is it you guys have time for this nonsense??

Can I borrow some?

Wal Mart had a 3 for 1 sale... I got free popcorn with mine... But I still wear a face mask so I don't get butter-death-syndrome.. I just had to cut a hole in front to eat the popcorn...

[John_Toolbox]

You know what this forum needs, is a karma feature. People who post useful, helpful and accurate information can be given a karma point by the people who's question was answered(or other readers/lurkers who may not actually post to the thread, but find it useful). People who post inaccurate data or who act like a jerk risk losing points. This feature is probably already built into the forum software here, and just needs to be turned on. It would be a nice way to quickly see who the highly respected contributors of this forum are and separate them from the ones who are consistently posting inaccurate information.

The DUC is normally a very good place to get information quickly, for some reason this thread has been crapped on with all kinds of misinformation and hate mail. I'm starting to think someone posting on here might be an HD system salesman, and not an actual user.

[Keybeeetsss]

Originally Posted by dmazurek

How is it you guys have time for this nonsense??

that is definitely what it is Dmaz...