MIDI gets recorded early

[nsureit]

Dell Laptop Win 10, PT Ultimate 2022.7.105/MTRX Studio+HDX. I use either my NORD Stage 2 or an old Novation 25 (for bass instruments) as controller. I never have an un-synced, delayed MIDI sequence. I record the MIDI at a very low buffer.

[Dizzi45Z]

Originally Posted by alhardy

Hi and thanks for checking this out.

Every MIDI I record in realtime gets printed early.
But the audio I hear in realtime is fine, and I tested it.

Are you thinking the MIDI notes get recorded early? or that the Audio that is printing the MIDI output is getting printed late?

I see you have a plugin after the VI, I can't see the details from the screenshot. What plugin is that? Is it as bad when you remove that plugin?

[resonatee]

This is still a problem with 2022.10. Avid wake up!

[Dizzi45Z]

I'm not convinced this is a bug. I made a video explaining why:

Pro Tools Record MIDI Early?

[climber]

Originally Posted by Dizzi45Z

I'm not convinced this is a bug. I made a video explaining why:

Pro Tools Record MIDI Early?

Wow… that is very interesting and seems to make sense

[resonatee]

Maybe this is the way Pro Tools works, but the user does not care about how the software compensates (or not) for any delays.

I think you agree that it is disorienting for anyone to find his/her midi performance at playback different to what whas heard during recording.

When you record, you _naturally_ compensate for any vi delay to hear the new overdubbed track locking in perfectly with what already is there....that is the point. And this is how every other Daw works...you hear what you get.

[massivekerry]

I wrote this in the 2022.10 thread, but meant to put it here.

I never have the early-MIDI problem, and have been using MIDI every day in Pro Tools since MIDI got good with PT 8 in 2008. Presently, I'm using an HD Native system in Low-Latency Mode, usually with the buffer set at 256. I try to avoid big latency-inducing plugins in the signal path (including my Master Bus) while I'm recording MIDI. If I'm revising something after I've mixed it, I often go and Disable everything on the Master Busses, as well as anything causing big Delay Compensation latency in the Delay Compensation display (you need to have this on all the time).

But I have noticed the following.

- Some Instruments (especially sampled virtual orchestra packages) have a delay before they start. They are coded this way, and the intent is to make things sound more "natural" with the way an attack occurs in the real instrument. Pro Tools allows you to set a (negative ...or positive) Track Delay on each MIDI or Instrument Track. You can do this in the Real-Time Properties display in the Edit or Mix Windows, the stand-alone Real-Time Properties window, or my favorite...

The "MIDI TRACK OFFSETS" window. (in the "Event" menu)

This window has saved my bacon, especially since I use a big template with loads of VIs. Set it up once, and you're good.

You should also notice that there is a GLOBAL MIDI PLAYBACK OFFSET
that can be entered. This is detailed on page 812 of the Pro Tools Reference Guide, and may be helpful if the problem is in your particular system. You'll find the part about MIDI Real-Time Properties on page 814. Really, you should read this entire chapter.

If you use orchestral VI libraries, and want a starting point for (negative) Track Delays, composer David Kudell maintains a database of delays for different instruments that he (or his co-contributors) use.

I hope this helps.

[resonatee]

Kerry,

I appreciate your post very much. Playing now with global midi offset, will see how that goes. I heard that HD Native is somehow superior when it comes to VI's with PT, halves the latency - or was it full HDX system? Can you elaborate on that?

Thanks!

[massivekerry]

Originally Posted by resonatee

Kerry,

I appreciate your post very much. Playing now with global midi offset, will see how that goes. I heard that HD Native is somehow superior when it comes to VI's with PT, halves the latency - or was it full HDX system? Can you elaborate on that?

Thanks!

I used older Pro Tools systems with the cards and no-latency (PT project, TDM/888-24, Accel+HD192) systems in the early '90s and '00s (like, when every DAW that wanted to integrate audio had to use Pro Tools hardware anyway), so I got used to that responsiveness. When HDX was introduced, it didn't seem that like a good value for me, since the AAX-DSP plugin market did not turn out to be very robust, and it was largely skipped by the kind of plugins that put the most burden on my system (Kontakt and other VIs). When Avid introduced the HD-Native card, that seemed like the best solution for me. I could still get "near-zero-latency" recording (especially with Low-Latency Mode - LLM) but I wasn't wasting money on the DSP chips that wouldn't service my needs. Avid finally fixed that a year or two ago with HDX hybrid mode (and discontinued my HD Native card). I'm still trying to figure out what the next step forward will be when I need to refresh my system. Carbon is looking like the best option, but I've been (perhaps unnecessarily) wary of the AVB/Ethernet connection. I had an Mbox 2 at one point, for travel, but I only ever remember editing on it, not recording.

[Dizzi45Z]

Originally Posted by resonatee

Maybe this is the way Pro Tools works, but the user does not care about how the software compensates (or not) for any delays.

... And this is how every other Daw works...you hear what you get.

This is the way any DAW should work IMO. Do you want the MIDI to reflect what you played? or what the DAW thinks you wanted to play? This is not the same as when the DAW adjusts the placement for an audio file based on delay compensation.

The options to change this would be the following.
1. Pro Tools calculates the buffer time it takes for the instrument to sound and moves the midi to the right in the timeline to compensate for that buffer. This asks Pro Tools to move the notes to what it assumed you meant to play. This would not work for someone using a hardware module. If the buffer time is calculated or reported incorrectly, the MIDI note would be misplaced (this seems difficult to calculate as every VI is likely different). This solution would also be infuriating for people who play on the beat regardless of the sound.

2. Pro Tools moves the audio after the recording to match the MIDI note. I think we could agree that we wouldn't want this as it would now sound early on playback from the audio track even if it sounded on time during recording.

The only solution I see is to lower the buffer setting as low as possible when using virtual instruments.

I can't imagine that any other DAW does #1 or #2 above. But I own Logic and when I get a moment, I'll do the same tests I did with Pro Tools. Have you run the same tests in the other DAW's you use? I'd be curious to see how they handle the scenario. If you test with the other DAW's, also record with a microphone next to your midi trigger so that you can see how it responds to you actually triggering with MIDI. Otherwise, there is no way to know if the DAW is placing the MIDI early, or the audio late.