Program Change (PC)?

[jamesleonard]

Hello, this has always bothered me about Pro tools: '' Why can't I use Program change events to switch voices at any point in the track - for an internal Plug-in? ''

This would be great to incorporate into the architecture. The bank select (MSB and LSB) are used for bank selection when selecting voices - therefore, I could have a succession of voices 'one-after-another'. For example a piano changes to a organ, then a synth voice, then a deep bass sound and so and so on - ad finitum.

This may have you thinking: ''what's the use of that?'' - but I can assure you... when arranging compositions - you can come up with truly magical passages; consisting of a succession of voices - which add to the aesthetics and emotion of the song.

I know you can implement the Program change events with external midi modules - say for instance: a synthesizer, but... this would be brilliant if I could implement it on Xpand2 for instance or other plug-ins with voices.

I used to do this a lot before I had PT (on an external sequencer, AKAI sampler and various external midi modules). I could get really intricate - and [this] command also avoided maxing the memory!

Obviously... on Pro Tools - this function would be implemented in the 'Midi Event List'.

James

[albee1952]

Using the term "voices" in this instance, is a bit misleading as Pro Tools uses the same term, but in a completely different meaning(voices referring to audio tracks). What you are describing(if I understand correctly) is actually "program change" to change the sound of a midi instrument. Pro Tools can send midi program change, and its possible(but I've never tried) that you can automate the preset in a given instrument plugin. Having said all that, its also pretty easy to copy/paste midi from one instrument track to another(or midi track) and doing this has the advantage of not causing notes to be cut off when a "voice" changes in a plugin

[Emcha_audio]

Originally Posted by jamesleonard

Hello, this has always bothered me about Pro tools: '' Why can't I use Program change events to switch voices at any point in the track - for an internal Plug-in? ''

This would be great to incorporate into the architecture. The bank select (MSB and LSB) are used for bank selection when selecting voices - therefore, I could have a succession of voices 'one-after-another'. For example a piano changes to a organ, then a synth voice, then a deep bass sound and so and so on - ad finitum.

This may have you thinking: ''what's the use of that?'' - but I can assure you... when arranging compositions - you can come up with truly magical passages; consisting of a succession of voices - which add to the aesthetics and emotion of the song.

I know you can implement the Program change events with external midi modules - say for instance: a synthesizer, but... this would be brilliant if I could implement it on Xpand2 for instance or other plug-ins with voices.

I used to do this a lot before I had PT (on an external sequencer, AKAI sampler and various external midi modules). I could get really intricate - and [this] command also avoided maxing the memory!

Obviously... on Pro Tools - this function would be implemented in the 'Midi Event List'.

James

The biggest reason is this, the amount of time it takes for a virtual instrument to change it's bank of sound can be very slow to very long depending on the library you are using. So using program change to change the sound bank in the VI would give you audible gaps and pops. Better to have the same parts copied on multiple instrument tracks where you have the right VI set up for each part and either mute the midi notes of the parts that are not supposed to play, or automate your mute button to mute the entire track when it's not supposed to play.

[jamesleonard]

Hi, thanks for your reply
'Program Change' (PC) in this instance does not mean: 'Audio Tracks' - it means: voices (MIDI).

For example:

I have a piano input on: 0 (MIDI)
the next input is: 240 (MIDI)
the next input is: 480 (MIDI)
the next input is: 720 (MIDI) ... (Btw) this could be in any 1/4 note (1-4)!

on the 2nd bar (3rd, 4th, 5th...) where-ever I want the 'Program change' to occur (see below):

I have a 'chosen' a synth tone input on: 0 (MIDI)
the next input is: 240 (MIDI)
the next input is: 480 (MIDI)
the next input is: 720 (MIDI)

(The program change will only work where there is a: MIDI step input like the examples I have provided) - it will not work if there is no step input! - and it will not work halfway through a long evolving pad sound, i.e.: a long chord sound that is 1 bar long cannot be changed, halfway if I use the (PC) function! It will only work at the point of entry, i.e.: the step input!

OK... say I want to stretch this to 10 bars (with 'each bar' having a different MIDI sound).
Firstly - in conventional Pro Tools commands - [this] means copying/duplicating, the Mono/Stereo instrument 10 times! and... the original instrument track may have 5 different plug-ins or more! Meaning:- I will have to call up Xpand-2 10 times! - as well as the other plug-ins - That process will 'cane' the memory! (do the math on this little example!)

Whereas, if [it] was done with: 'Program changes' - it requires only 1 Instrument track! (the Program change editing is done in the Midi Event List).

It is done like this:

Category, Program#, Bank#, Voice-Name, Element (look up MIDI voice lists).

This function (Program change) cannot be implemented in Pro Tools with internal plug-ins!!

James

[jamesleonard]

Originally Posted by Emcha_audio

The biggest reason is this, the amount of time it takes for a virtual instrument to change it's bank of sound can be very slow to very long depending on the library you are using. So using program change to change the sound bank in the VI would give you audible gaps and pops. Better to have the same parts copied on multiple instrument tracks where you have the right VI set up for each part and either mute the midi notes of the parts that are not supposed to play, or automate your mute button to mute the entire track when it's not supposed to play.

Why should it be very slow to very long - it should be instantaneous!
There should be no extraneous noises, pops and clicks, when I implement a program change - ever - period!

James

[Emcha_audio]

Originally Posted by jamesleonard

Why should it be very slow to very long - it should be instantaneous!
There should be no extraneous noises, pops and clicks, when I implement a program change - ever - period!

James

No, we understand what you mean with the program change changing the type of sound you will have from the VI, a few of us are from the good old hardware midi sampler days. But in reality, a lot of Virtual sound banks are in the hundred of megs nowadays, so it takes some time for the sound bank to be loaded into ram from the Hard drive. The heavier the sound bank, the longer the loading time. Let me give you an example, When I work with East west symphonic orchestra platinum, it can take up to 15 seconds (depending on what I'm already doing) to load a 10 string viola ensemble, with the near, stage and room mics enabled. If you are, in my example, using a patch (sound bank) of guitar and then you would send a pc to change the patch to that 10 string viola, you would get a space in your music that nothing is playing for that track. And this is normal for the heavier samples where there's a lot of articulation and volume change that are sampled and will result in very big patches. On the other hand, if you are using very small patch like the the xpand 2 cold bass and go to a sine wave synth in xpand 2, both these are so small that you might not notice the difference in the loading time, but you might hear a pop or a glitch depending on the reverb tail or delays of the previous patch that is being changed to the new patch.

On the other hand if you use samplers players like Kontakt or Play, then you will be able to load multiple patchs into that sampler player and assign a midi track to that patch. You will then only have to copy the midi track the number of time you need it and mute the notes (or use the mute automation on the miditrack) that is not supposed to play, and you won't have to deal with program changes.

Alternatively you can also use VEpro 5 and load up all the number of instrument and patches you need in there (Vepro 5 is very good at handling ram usage) either on a slave computer or on the same computer, and you will be able to use the vitrual instruments rewired to vepro (or again you can do the same with reaper and other daw that can be rewired) to play the vst in them and have better usage of ram, if that is an issue.

[jamesleonard]

Thank you for your reply, Emcha_audio I appreciate it and thank you for making me aware of new plug-ins on the market as well.

Pro Tools does not allow the user to make program changes (PC) with plugins, period. I know what you are saying about the timing delay of loading into ram from the hard drive

Quote:

But in reality, a lot of Virtual sound banks are in the hundred of megs nowadays, so it takes some time for the sound bank to be loaded into ram from the Hard drive. The heavier the sound bank, the longer the loading time.

This is called 'Baud rate' (Baud rate refers to the number of signals or symbol changes that occur per second). However, I never experienced any slow 'Baud rate' when using numerous hardware devices... one that comes to mind (no names) had a 16 track sequencer and a high quality tone generator that provided 519 voices and 20 drum kits and a polyphony of 64 notes - it also had a note resolution of 480 clocks per quarter note (120 clocks per step) - and this delivered instantaneously. (Pro Tools has 240 clocks per step).

Anyway... I know you can push an icon on the plug-ins and a list will come up... which, shows the patches - and you can increment through these patches by adjusting the timing (1-3 seconds or more) - by ticking/checking the box (at the bottom of the window) and it will automatically scroll through the patches at the desired setting. Just wish [this] function could be developed further - because you can not adjust anything (Pro Tools is disabled temporarily) - when [this] window is up - and scrolling automatically through the patches.

Regards

James

[Emcha_audio]

Indeed on the hardware it was easy to get a PC done without having the loading latency because all the patches were on rom chips. Easily accessible and quite fast (for the time). But when you work on a pc, there's always a system delay that has to be taken into account due to the path the information has to take before being available into the daw. While things may look similar in nature the technology used have different aspect that makes what you are asking unreliable when working withing a daw and virtual instruments, unless you are using the steps I provided for you.

Also remember that at the time, the patches that were on the rom chips for the hardware synth or samplers, were very very small in terms of memory weight. The biggest patches I remember seeing on the jv 2080 were mere mb in total. With it's 8 slots filled with expansion library cards you had a total of 144 mb of memory used. As you can imagine that is quite a low use of memory and each patch would be very small indeed. Compare it with a library like EW Piano's which has 4 different piano patch of GB of information for each patch (Bechstein — 73GB, Bösendorfer — 87GB, Steinway — 58GB, Yamaha — 46GB) that information must pass from the Hard drive, through the cpu to the ram to be loaded and available to be used into the Daw. Of course not all that information is loaded at once in the ram else you'd need hundred of gigs of ram, but just loading the impulse of the library so that the rest is loaded in real time as it is used, is enough to cause that loading latency I was talking about earlier.

So you can see that what you are asking to do today is in fact not optimal in today's settings and why PC for changing patch within a plugin is not programmed. The best way is to have the libraries already loaded and ready to use.

[jamesleonard]

There you go, you said it yourself !

Quote:

Compare it with a library like EW Piano's which has 4 different piano patch of GB of information for each patch (Bechstein — 73GB, Bösendorfer — 87GB, Steinway — 58GB, Yamaha — 46GB) that information must pass from the Hard drive, through the cpu to the ram to be loaded and available to be used into the Daw. Of course not all that information is loaded at once in the ram else you'd need hundred of gigs of ram.

Wouldn't it be great?

BTW: The hardware machine, I was talking about in my last post is '22 years old' - and there's me thinking about: 'Moore's Law' - though I do understand he's getting a bit slow in his old age oh well never mind.

James

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by jamesleonard

Thank you for your reply, Emcha_audio I appreciate it and thank you for making me aware of new plug-ins on the market as well.

Pro Tools does not allow the user to make program changes (PC) with plugins, period. I know what you are saying about the timing delay of loading into ram from the hard drive

Quote:

But in reality, a lot of Virtual sound banks are in the hundred of megs nowadays, so it takes some time for the sound bank to be loaded into ram from the Hard drive. The heavier the sound bank, the longer the loading time.

This is called 'Baud rate' (Baud rate refers to the number of signals or symbol changes that occur per second). However, I never experienced any slow 'Baud rate' when using numerous hardware devices... one that comes to mind (no names) had a 16 track sequencer and a high quality tone generator that provided 519 voices and 20 drum kits and a polyphony of 64 notes - it also had a note resolution of 480 clocks per quarter note (120 clocks per step) - and this delivered instantaneously. (Pro Tools has 240 clocks per step).

Anyway... I know you can push an icon on the plug-ins and a list will come up... which, shows the patches - and you can increment through these patches by adjusting the timing (1-3 seconds or more) - by ticking/checking the box (at the bottom of the window) and it will automatically scroll through the patches at the desired setting. Just wish [this] function could be developed further - because you can not adjust anything (Pro Tools is disabled temporarily) - when [this] window is up - and scrolling automatically through the patches.

Regards

James

The ability to do or not do program changes is not PT's fault at all. Some vi's respond to program change event and some don't. Most Arturia synths respond to program changes. I have yet to see NI Kontakt 5 respond to program changes. Nor EWQLSO with the Play 4 engine.

The term Baud rate means nothing here as that's strictly in the hardware domain for signal transfer between two pieces of hardware (say modem to computer). We're talking software here and truly some softsynths can take a long time to completely switch patches. No matter how fast a computer might be the computations take time to do and gaps are inevitable for complex patches.

I have a couple of softsynths (can't remember the exact ones at the moment) that with PT playing and the vi gui open I can make manual patch changes and PT keeps playing. The new patch may not play as I select the patch but usually picks up within a note or two.

The best way right now is to have multiple tracks with each one having the sound you want on it. Use split notes to move the MIDI notes to the track(s) you want. A little more work but it'll help you get the job done.