Feature request : 7.1.4 bus

[flavor32]

+1 pleaaaaaaaase. Those of us mixing into object beds would love wider bus widths. I pan into busses and want at least a 7.0.4 bus (9.1.6 would rock)...not a bed, but a buss. the current max 7.1.2 buss will not let us pan into a 7.1.4 reverb this way straight away from a 7.0.2 panner, etc., nor into a 7.1.4 or 9.1.6 object bed.

[audiogamble]

Count me in at another +1 on this. I'm doing this in logic currently, and all it takes is for the software to allow that channel width. Easy enough for the user to take care of the extra height channels with object outputs. 9.1.6 would be immaculate.

[Rodrigue Amyot]

+1 for me too!!!.
The problem is that the binaural seem to be made from the 7.1.2 event if you use objet with DAPS. so all the elevation positioning is sum in stereo !!!!
Doing ORTF3D recording we ad to go back to 3rd order to keep the elevation in the mic recording. But it would be nice to be in a Atmos workflow to make multiple delivery format (binaural, stereo, 5.1, atmos. etc).

[musicube]

Thank you @Michael Carnes with your #11 comment. It made me think how to find a simple solution to use my 7.1.4 hardware in Pro Tools.
I found a way without restrictions and complicated workarounds. Here is how I feed all 7.1.4.channels with individual signals and without larger workarounds in Pro Tools:

Dry Signals become Objects, that way I can address them to all speakers individually. (That's no news, but just to name it properly)

Reverb Signals are routed to a 7.1.2 bus with a LiquidSonic reverb plugin (I'm using the Cinematic Rooms Professional). The plugin provides an extra output from the 7.1.6. reverb signal. (See attachment)
So I simply grab the (plugin) output of the LS plugin and route it to two Aux Tracks that I handle as Objects. (Input>plugin LS)
Now I can pan them discreet to front and rear upper speaker of my 7.1.4. (L/Rtf of 7.1.4 and L/Rtr of 7.1.4). Simple but effective, thanks to LiquidSonic.

[Michael Carnes]

Originally Posted by musicube

Thank you @Michael Carnes with your #11 comment. It made me think how to find a simple solution to use my 7.1.4 hardware in Pro Tools.
I found a way without restrictions and complicated workarounds. Here is how I feed all 7.1.4.channels with individual signals and without larger workarounds in Pro Tools:

Dry Signals become Objects, that way I can address them to all speakers individually. (That's no news, but just to name it properly)

Reverb Signals are routed to a 7.1.2 bus with a LiquidSonic reverb plugin (I'm using the Cinematic Rooms Professional). The plugin provides an extra output from the 7.1.6. reverb signal. (See attachment)
So I simply grab the (plugin) output of the LS plugin and route it to two Aux Tracks that I handle as Objects. (Input>plugin LS)
Now I can pan them discreet to front and rear upper speaker of my 7.1.4. (L/Rtf of 7.1.4 and L/Rtr of 7.1.4). Simple but effective, thanks to LiquidSonic.

Yes, I've worked up a similar solution. I just "poach" the non-bed reverb signals into objects and leave the 7.1 part in the bed. It takes a while to get sub-busses set up but it works. The problem is that the Atmos panner in Pro Tools only knows how to pan a reverb send "up". It doesn't know how to pan a send to "top front right" because of the restricted bus size. This doesn't give as pure an acoustic result as a true pan of the dry signal to the proper location. My old Exponential reverbs will support a full 7.1.6 mix, but you have to do a little standing on your head to make it happen (it's in the user guide). Sounds much nicer than 7.1.2 or 7.1.4, but is still restricted by that compromised vertical pan. I'm not going to name a competing DAW here, but there is another option that supports a true 7.1.6 bus and that does work better insofar as reverb.

[Dizaineris]

Atmos Beds are 7.1.2.
According to Ceri @Dolby, they will always be up to 7.1.2.


He explained why several times, so I'll try to paraphrase.

If you are mixing for a film/theater, do you want the audience in the front to hear a different mix(height bed) than the people in the back of theater?

Or should everyone hear the same bed?
No matter if it's played back in a 5.1.2, 7.1.4, 9.1.6, etc.
The bed remains the same.

The objects would be used for movement/placement in the heights.

If you want a 7.1.4, 9.1.6, etc. bus for your speaker layouts, great,
but that is not an atmos bed.

[Michael Carnes]

Originally Posted by Dizaineris

Atmos Beds are 7.1.2.
According to Ceri @Dolby, they will always be up to 7.1.2.


He explained why several times, so I'll try to paraphrase.

If you are mixing for a film/theater, do you want the audience in the front to hear a different mix(height bed) than the people in the back of theater?

Or should everyone hear the same bed?
No matter if it's played back in a 5.1.2, 7.1.4, 9.1.6, etc.
The bed remains the same.

The objects would be used for movement/placement in the heights.

If you want a 7.1.4, 9.1.6, etc. bus for your speaker layouts, great,
but that is not an atmos bed.

I more than understand the bed. And I understand and largely agree with Ceri's arguments regarding the bed. With the exception of reverb, I don't put anything at all there. The bed basically provides a comfortable place for people coming over from channel-based audio. The sooner you get stuff into objects, the better.

Please don't confuse my argument for wider busses as an argument for a wider bed. My interest is a wider buss is entirely related to panning a signal through a virtual space. If the dry signal is placed in the front overhead area, then I want reflections and early signal propagation beginning from that same area. My reverbs were designed to do just that and they sound much more natural when the DAW can support it with a wider send buss.

If you're willing to take the time, you can take an appropriate 7.1.4/7.1.6 reverb and put it all (or just the height portions) into objects that are permanently placed in the top corners. Because these can be shared, the total cost to your object budget is only 4 (you can have better fold-down results if you use 6).

[Dizaineris]

Certainly wasn't directed at you Michael or anyone in particular.

But you would have to admit there is a lot of confusion regarding 7.1.2 beds out there.

BTW, I do have and use Symphony 3D and Stratus 3D. Which are fantastic.
As well as all the Liquid Sonics verbs.
Sadly, I only have a 7.1.4 room.

Originally Posted by Michael Carnes

I more than understand the bed. And I understand and largely agree with Ceri's arguments regarding the bed. With the exception of reverb, I don't put anything at all there. The bed basically provides a comfortable place for people coming over from channel-based audio. The sooner you get stuff into objects, the better.

Please don't confuse my argument for wider busses as an argument for a wider bed. My interest is a wider buss is entirely related to panning a signal through a virtual space. If the dry signal is placed in the front overhead area, then I want reflections and early signal propagation beginning from that same area. My reverbs were designed to do just that and they sound much more natural when the DAW can support it with a wider send buss.

If you're willing to take the time, you can take an appropriate 7.1.4/7.1.6 reverb and put it all (or just the height portions) into objects that are permanently placed in the top corners. Because these can be shared, the total cost to your object budget is only 4 (you can have better fold-down results if you use 6).

[Michael Carnes]

Originally Posted by Dizaineris

Certainly wasn't directed at you Michael or anyone in particular.

I know. We're just having fun.

But you would have to admit there is a lot of confusion regarding 7.1.2 beds out there.

Perhaps more on the music side, which is mainly where I am these days. There's a fear of objects, so I've know a few people who mix exclusively to the bed. Takes some persuading to get them into objects

BTW, I do have and use Symphony 3D and Stratus 3D. Which are fantastic.
As well as all the Liquid Sonics verbs.

I'm glad that iZotope are at work getting my old stuff ported over to M1. Matt's already got the Liquid stuff over there.

Sadly, I only have a 7.1.4 room.

Just like me. Still beats the heck out of stereo ;-)

But you did post an interesting question: If you are mixing for a film/theater, do you want the audience in the front to hear a different mix(height bed) than the people in the back of theater?

I think the answer is a guarded "no". You certainly want to be able to hear everything--especially dialog. But you also want to have enough time cues and decorrelation to place the image around the room. You don't want so much variance in levels that the mix falls apart and something important isn't heard. But part of what makes an element sound "over there" is going to have an effect on your perception of the mix depending on where you sit. This is even more true in Atmos. I like the idea that sonically you're sitting in a spot with live action and music going on--rather like theater or opera.

I doubt we're in any serious disagreement there. But your question did get me to reflecting about how the nature of mixes has changed.

[rna]

Well now 2022 is creeping to an end and we still can't make a 7.1.4 bus.
I compose using all analog gear so I tend to do all that I can in Pro Tools 7.1.2 native and then switch to Atmos mode for final balancing and tidy up what i had planned for the extra 2 speakers at the rear. I get into trouble if I want to slightly raise the height of the things in the rear because of the 7.1.2 bus limitation.
Also 7.1.2 height speaker placement is different, the 2 being in line with the sides. Whilst my 7.1.4 rig the .2 shows up more toward the front as they are in a square configuration.

The reason I need a 7.1.4 bus is to run a room correction plugin in the DAW before I change to the Dolby Atmos Renderer so I can track lay with confidence.

Even the new Logic can make a 7.1.4 bus now.