Is anyone having issues with Cut/Insert time?

[take77]

Update: Solved with release of 2022.6. Thank You!


Original post:

I'm still having issues with this function in a session comprised of Instrument tracks only. (PT Studio 2022.5/W10) *

If I cut or insert even just 2 bars to my current project, I have to realign at least 50% of the notes on every Instrument track.
Also affected are the location & tempo markers.
Various markers and MIDI notes shift out of line with the grid by what appears to be 1/128th of a note (halfway between the 64th note grid lines).

The main workaround to the issue is to establish my arrangements outside of Pro Tools on the guitar.
Then create established section markers from there.

2nd workaround & logistic:

If I decide to cut/insert time, I can simply covert the MIDI to audio and then create an arrangement track to shuffle the clips on.
I'll have to create the section in space further down the timeline (after the current arrangement) then convert it to audio.
Then insert it in shuffle mode with the audio clips on my arrangement track.

I fully understand that some of the MIDI issues aren't of top concern among pro users or even necessary.
Some of us just use PT as a writing tool and would like to create & arrange MIDI accompaniment tracks to jam to quickly and easily as the parts happen.

I did purchase Studio One Artist but would rather stay within PT since each year money is invested into it.

If the problem is only inherent to this particular session I can't figure out what is causing it.
I know other threads have said it only happens at certain tempos and sample rates.
For the most part, this particular session fluctuates between 119 & 121BPM @44.1KHz

* I realize this has been acknowledged in the Legacy section in the "Sample Rounding issue" thread.
I'd like to keep the request for a fix current.


Kind regards,
Mike

[nednednerb]

How do you change the tempo, and when? A "sample rounding error" seems reasonable to expect when making a digital crystal-clock type quantization system flow in timing and expressivity.

Not speaking poetically just to do so: if you had one plugin that was oversampling or reconverting one playback sample in a "time" that was "flowing", the sample rounding might occur. The error is that the digital system loses track of some of the time relationships of other dynamic parts.

In essence, the "physics" of the computation might actually need to be quantum or at least billions of Hz sample rate to get perfect real humanization.

Maybe, Avid could create a better system, but maybe constraining your project session's plug-ins, conforming all the sample rates of audio files, and so on, could potentially get that session to work when you cut and paste. Maybe if you switch the tempo just around the insert point before you paste, things will be in the same sample rounding, without error.

At some point, it seems the physics or the humanization have to give way to the current state of tech. Maybe it is a serious headache for AVID or maybe it is kind of a computing strength or quantization problem to do it perfect every time without these errors occurring in certain setups.

I would suggest finding a workflow that does not introduce such problems. Like waiting until a certain point to change tempo, or doing so in the way that does not introduce the errors.

I wonder what else changed by PT12 that seems to have made it stopped working...

[take77]

Basically I'd like to cut & insert 1-16 bars without having to go in and correct grid alignment issues that didn't exist before cutting & inserting.
I've also made sure to select the option to move all markers with the cut or insert of time.

Right now it's: "Do I want the interlude section or not?"
If I dare insert or cut a part to hear & feel how it sounds, I'll have excess work to do.
A task that should take only a few moments results in painstaking hours of realignment.

As regards tempo changes, I adjust those as I go. I'll just have to make sure tempos are established before bouncing MIDI sections to audio.
I'd prefer to not to bounce anything to audio at all until my MIDI drums, bass & keys arrangements are feeling like I want.

From now on I'm just going to bounce MIDI sections to audio and create a separate audio track to audition various arrangements on.
Thing is, if I still want mix control I'll have to bounce or commit each MIDI track to audio separately rather than as a section/stereo bounce.
Or mix the current timeline version first and arrange stereo audio clips later.

I'd rather be able to just cut and insert sections without having to convert just to avoid discrepancy when working out arrangements.

[take77]

Originally Posted by nednednerb

maybe constraining your project session's plug-ins, conforming all the sample rates of audio files, and so on, could potentially get that session to work when you cut and paste. Maybe if you switch the tempo just around the insert point before you paste, things will be in the same sample rounding, without error.

I would suggest finding a workflow that does not introduce such problems. Like waiting until a certain point to change tempo, or doing so in the way that does not introduce the errors.

Thank you for taking the time to offer these insights and tips.
I'm going to try these suggestions.
I appreciate your mind for things:)

[take77]

Originally Posted by Robruce

Do the existing tempo changes occur directly at bar lines? Or instead, are tempo changes occurring contiguously and throughout measures?
If tempo changes are contiguously changing during/through bars etc., it's usually better to stay in Slip mode rather than Grid.

Any difference in this behavior when working within Tick vs. Sample-based tracks/sessions?

When selecting and performing a Shuffle mode edit, are the MIDI tracks in Note view or Clip view?
It can make a difference in terms of which proximate notes are selected.

Pgs. 16 & 629 might have some helpful info on what's happening. hth

Hello,

Thank you for the helpful response.

The tempos are primarily inserted at the start of each section (on the bar #).
Sometimes I insert a tempo a couple ticks slower on accents for 2 counts and resume the original tempo.
I'll try doing my cuts/inserts with a universal tempo and do fine adjustments later.

I'm interested to try things in slip mode now.

Right now the Instrument tracks are in tick mode and the timeline is at the default sample mode which I've never had an issue with before.
And this seems to be best when combining audio & MIDI.
If I use elastic audio I put the audio tracks in tick mode.

I usually have both audio and MIDI clips in clip view except when the MIDI editor is open.

Will refer to the pages you suggested!

[daeron80]

Originally Posted by nednednerb

A "sample rounding error" seems reasonable to expect when making a digital crystal-clock type quantization system flow in timing and expressivity.

Considering that PT is the only DAW on the planet that suffers from this issue, I think we can rule out the idea that it's reasonable to expect the error, or that it's due to a limitation inherent in physics.

[nednednerb]

Originally Posted by daeron80

Considering that PT is the only DAW on the planet that suffers from this issue, I think we can rule out the idea that it's reasonable to expect the error, or that it's due to a limitation inherent in physics.

That's what I mean. Pro Tools is exact and doesn't "round"... I'm not sure how other DAWs do it, but I've used Ableton for years and seen how some processes involve on the fly conversions with varied rounding. It got better a few versions ago. Long before, I couldn't even zoom into a sample accurate view!!

So the physics limitation I speak of is making truly human timing or MIDI timing relate >perfectly, and specifically the limitation is just referring to sample rate, CPU, human ears, and exquisite timing. There are enough numbers here that some unaccounted for calculations won't create the same sense of timing.. perhaps.

Simply changing between FPS or timecode, BPM whatever. What if human timing contains a random irrational number? Arguing the universe is perfectly represented rationally isn't your point, though, haha! I don't think..

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[daeron80]

Computer math isn't limited to samples, so why should the placement of MIDI notes be? Digidesign made a clumsy mistake in the way position is defined when they added MIDI to PT years ago, and Avid has decided not to fix it, or put it so far down the priority list that they risk losing a great number composers who might otherwise choose them. When I watch Guy Michelmore, Anne Dern, Nahre Sol, and others working in Cubase, my jaw drops at how quick and easy everything is. Of course, doing audio in Cubase has its corresponding limitations. But if anyone is in a position to do both things right, it's Avid. They're just not terribly interested.

[take77]

Cut & insert now working as desired in PT 2022.6/W10.

However, I did need to "refresh" problematic MIDI stems created in previous versions of Pro Tools by quantizing and re-saving them in another DAW before importing them into 2022.6.

You can read the problem I had and solution here:
http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=420775&page=3