MIDI gets recorded early

[Dizzi45Z]

Originally Posted by massivekerry

You should also notice that there is a GLOBAL MIDI PLAYBACK OFFSET
that can be entered. This is detailed on page 812 of the Pro Tools Reference Guide, and may be helpful if the problem is in your particular system. You'll find the part about MIDI Real-Time Properties on page 814. Really, you should read this entire chapter.

I'll have to check this out. But wouldn't this be to compensate for the latency of a MIDI device (the time it takes the MIDI keyboard, etc to register the note and spit out the midi information and then be received into the sequencer)? I can't imagine that this would be able to compensate for every VI since every VI likely responds differently.

[massivekerry]

Originally Posted by Dizzi45Z

I'll have to check this out. But wouldn't this be to compensate for the latency of a MIDI device (the time it takes the MIDI keyboard, etc to register the note and spit out the midi information and then be received into the sequencer)? I can't imagine that this would be able to compensate for every VI since every VI likely responds differently.

Yes, I think that's the idea, especially with Devices that don't have USB-input (ie - DX7->MIDI interface->USB port). Also, specifically for older (or non-Avid) interfaces that don't have the TDM/PCI-e low-latency benefits.

As the manual says:

This capability is provided in large part to compensate for the audio monitoring latency in host-based Pro Tools. If you are monitoring the output of external MIDI instruments with an external mixer or sound system (or headphones), there is no latency. If, however, you are monitoring the output of your MIDI devices through a Pro Tools interface (such as 003 family devices), your MIDI tracks sound slightly later than your audio tracks. The larger the setting for the H/W Buffer Size (128, 256, 512, or 1024 samples), the larger the latency.

[smokeydan]

Originally Posted by Dizzi45Z

I'm not convinced this is a bug. I made a video explaining why:

Pro Tools Record MIDI Early?

I did a similar test a couple of years ago and came to the same conclusion.

Having said that, I think there are still actual bugs with MIDI and the delay compensation.

I just updated to 2022.10 on the HDX rig, and for the last few weeks, I have been recording a live band set up. The keyboard player has a midi keyboard connected via USB to a Mac laptop using standalone Arturia instruments hosted there.

I am recording the audio from the interface of this keyboard rig, but also recording the MIDI direct out of the controller keyboard onto an instrument track.

The buffer setting (on the Arturia Instrument on the keyboard rig) is set to minimum, and off the top of my head, supposedly just over 1ms of latency according to the preferences window in the Arturia software. There will obviously also be a slight delay due to the digital to analog conversion in the interface connected to the keyboard rig, and another slight delay due to the analog to digital conversion in the interface of the Pro Tools rig we are recording onto) but it shouldn't amount to much, I'm guessing maybe in the order of 3ms altogether.

But I have consistently got the MIDI recorded onto the VI track around 1500 - 1550 samples (around 30ms @ 48k) early compared to the audio recording (which appears to be in time)

I have tried with different VIs in the instrument track, different buffer settings on the pro tools rig, and it never seemed to change, its always out by the same. I tried changing the routing of the VI so it went direct to an output, I tried disabling the delay compensation, nothing much changed.

I was looking through preferences and saw under MIDI - "Delay Compensation for External Devices" - which I think I had noticed before, but maybe assumed that this was to do with compensating for MIDI delays when playing back MIDI performances on external; modules/synths. Anyway, I unchecked MIDI Notes and Controllers, tried a test recording, and the difference was down to a much more reasonable 220 samples (4ms), which I think could possibly be accounted for by latency in the keyboard rig itself, and I doubt its the sort of delay that most keyboard players would notice. (I'm sure many will disagree!)

But the kicker is, when I switched this MIDI "Delay Compensation for External Devices" back on, the 1500 sample discrepancy did NOT come back. Somehow flipping it off and back on again appears to have reset something in the delay compensation engine.

Sometimes, even with just audio in the picture, Pro Tools delay compensation engine can get confused when plug ins are added, or routing is changed. I've occasionally had an unexplained delay between left and right on the main stereo bus after inserting a plug in or changing some routing. Make the channel inactive and then active again, and it normally seems to cure itself - so I'm wondering if somehow there's was a glitch in the compensation engine that only got cured when I reset this preference?
Possibly compounded or perpetuated by me importing all the same tracks and routing from a template session?

But now, even if I go back to an earlier session where this problem was occurring, I cannot recreate the issue. The takes that were out are still out by 1500 ish samples, but when I do a fresh recording, its back down to just over 200 samples.

And if I record the MIDI directly onto an Instrument track and then print the audio from that, as far as I can see, zooming right in, they are now precisely aligned.

Something to try anyway, if you are experiencing this kind of extreme early MIDI recording.

[resonatee]

Ok, so i _think_ i found a workaround for the problem that was bugging me, that is : Protools was recording the midi data early, and you basically never did hear what you just played, frustrating.

I got inspired by a gearslutz post here : https://gearspace.com/board/showpost...&postcount=723

The solution is to disable all delay compensation when recording midi parts.
The shortcut is called "Use Delay compensation" and you can invoke it with
ctrl-shift-S and type Use Delay compensation. All delay indicators in the mixer should go blank and the "Dly" at the top bar will disappear. Record the part, and voila! it sounds exactly in time just as you heard it while recording. Amazing.

you can make a custom keyboard shortcut if you are on a newer version of PT. Test it and tell me what you think guys!

[Simon2065]

Hi

The thing that caused issues with early recording of midi for me was the Ignore Errors checkbox in the audio engine setup. If it was checked (I.e set to ignore errors) then midi was recorded early.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RobertDorn]

Originally Posted by resonatee

Ok, so i _think_ i found a workaround for the problem that was bugging me, that is : Protools was recording the midi data early, and you basically never did hear what you just played, frustrating.

I got inspired by a gearslutz post here : https://gearspace.com/board/showpost...&postcount=723

The solution is to disable all delay compensation when recording midi parts.
The shortcut is called "Use Delay compensation" and you can invoke it with
ctrl-shift-S and type Use Delay compensation. All delay indicators in the mixer should go blank and the "Dly" at the top bar will disappear. Record the part, and voila! it sounds exactly in time just as you heard it while recording. Amazing.

you can make a custom keyboard shortcut if you are on a newer version of PT. Test it and tell me what you think guys!

This is all part of the 'critical bug PT-263943' because Pro Tools isn't capable of delay compensating properly for all things MIDI related.

Turning off delay compensation for tracks with a virtual instrument on it somehow acts as a workaround, but please don't put any plugins on the track with significant amounts of sample delay on tracks with plugin delay compensation turned off, because that will cause everything to run out of sync again.

[Dizzi45Z]

Originally Posted by resonatee

Ok, so i _think_ i found a workaround for the problem that was bugging me, that is : Protools was recording the midi data early, and you basically never did hear what you just played, frustrating.

I got inspired by a gearslutz post here : https://gearspace.com/board/showpost...&postcount=723

The solution is to disable all delay compensation when recording midi parts.
The shortcut is called "Use Delay compensation" and you can invoke it with
ctrl-shift-S and type Use Delay compensation. All delay indicators in the mixer should go blank and the "Dly" at the top bar will disappear. Record the part, and voila! it sounds exactly in time just as you heard it while recording. Amazing.

you can make a custom keyboard shortcut if you are on a newer version of PT. Test it and tell me what you think guys!

Question for you. Do your instrument tracks have any sends? Or are they routed to anything other than your main out? I ask because that often adds latency to the Instrument tracks when Delay Compensation is on.

In my opinion, the real problem is that Pro Tools should follow the same behavior as audio tracks. When Audio tracks are record enabled, the delay compensation for that track is turned off allowing for the lowest latency possible. This doesn't happen on Instrument tracks.

I still think the culprit with people thinking the MIDI is early is not Pro Tools. It is the fact that when there is latency, we have a tendency (although we may not realize it) to play early so that the sounds sound in time.

To test this theory, make sure that there are no plugins on your master faders and that the instrument track is routed directly to the main output and there are no sends on that track. Mute the instrument track (so you can't hear the sound of the instrument), turn on the metronome and then play a note to the metronome beat as accurately as you can. Then analyze where the midi is being placed.

[gills]

Just read through this whole thread. Here's a summary for newcomers.

Hitting a note when recording MIDI will trigger two events:

1. The note is printed to the timeline at the exact moment you hit it (except for insignificant USB cable latency from your MIDI controller).
2. But during record, the note is actually triggered out loud after the latency time introduced by the session's plugins

When there's significant latency, most of us intuitively play early so that our notes trigger in time. But when playing back, those notes no longer trigger where they did when you were recording. Instead, they trigger where they were printed.

I disagree with the notion that this is desired behavior. Pro Tools should be printing the note at the same moment it triggered it during record.

Better yet, during record, it should trigger the note at the moment you play it (zero latency) so you can play a good performance. That's the moment it's capturing and printing the note at, so it's the moment we should hear the note.

[resonatee]

Did anything change with 2024.3.1?