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  #21  
Old 01-05-2016, 01:04 PM
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Peter Baird Peter Baird is offline
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

I have never actually measured this before for myself. Most of my digital life has been 24/48 video based, and since overdubs were EXTREMELY rare I didn't worry much about it. As I transition to doing more and more straight music work latency in the cans becomes an issue.

The rule of thumb we developed on the last few late night shows I did was that once you got past about 3.2 or 3.3 ms of throughput latency to the IEMs you could expect to start getting complaints from the pickier artists. The hard truth there is that with digital monitor and FOH systems once you've gotten down to a single AD/DA cycle and optimized whatever audio network you're using, you're pretty much done reducing latency. It is what it is.

I've also never been terribly concerned about using higher sample rates, since everything was going to broadcast at 48 anyways, and file size/media storage with large track counts was until relatively recently still a consideration.

So now I'm spending more time with the home system, and getting to know HDN and the OMNI after exclusively using HDX. I had heard that HDN could get <2ms, so I set up a session at 96 with the 64 sample buffer, instantiated and recorded a click track, sent it out and back in to the OMNI, routed it to an Aux Input, routed that to a track, recorded it, and compared it with the original. The distance between the two is 173 samples. My limited math ability tells me that one sample at 96k is something like .010417ms. 173 x .010417 = 1.8ms RTL, just as advertised (and confirmed by propower and others).

Same setup at 48k with the 32 sample buffer (one sample is something like .02083ms): 149 samples x .02083 = 3.1ms. 64 sample buffer 213 samples: 4.44ms.

I think I'm going to change my song template to 96K and just adjust the buffer to accommodate whatever I'm doing at the moment--recording, VIs, mixing. Just need to do some stability testing to see where the 64 sample buffer starts to crap out.

Peter
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  #22  
Old 01-08-2016, 03:47 PM
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Matt Hepworth Matt Hepworth is offline
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

Ah, my favorite subject.

HDN latency is much higher than HD Accel or HDX.

HD Accel and HDX latency is independent of the buffer.

If you're not using plugins on the way in, though, HDN's (and native in general's) LLM option would be your best bet. Sub 2ms latency like HDX and Accel at normal samplerates and regardless of buffer.

I purchased HDN and found the latency unbearable at 44.1. Sold it and returned to HD Accel.


As to Appgee vs AVID and Lynx:

Aurora - identical latency and number of samples in and out to AVID

Symphony I/O - identical *round trip* latency and number of samples. Meaning it works perfectly for delay compensation and hardware inserts, but actually will give comb filtering if recording the same source. IIRC, I think it's like 3 samples different on the input, but compensated on the output.
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  #23  
Old 01-09-2016, 10:40 PM
michael c michael c is offline
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

Matt-

Do you mean if we don't track through the recording channel input with plug ins on that track that HDN will feel the same as TDM and HDX as far as latency? We never track with or through plug ins on the recorded channel; just Neve 1073 or API and LA-2A hardware on the way in. Sometimes we might bus out to a reverb or delay plug in on an Aux.
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  #24  
Old 01-09-2016, 10:49 PM
propower propower is offline
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

HDN with Low Latency setting ON (no plugins for sure but I don't know if the sends still work on Record enabled channels)
RoundTrip Latency is

0.47ms @96kHz
1.9ms @44.1kHz
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  #25  
Old 01-15-2016, 07:46 AM
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

Quote:
Originally Posted by JFreak View Post
HDN@96kHz can do sub 2ms
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Baird View Post

The rule of thumb we developed on the last few late night shows I did was that once you got past about 3.2 or 3.3 ms of throughput latency to the IEMs you could expect to start getting complaints from the pickier artists. The hard truth there is that with digital monitor and FOH systems once you've gotten down to a single AD/DA cycle and optimized whatever audio network you're using, you're pretty much done reducing latency. It is what it is.

Peter
3.3 ms is consistent with my experience.
The most important aspect is not dealing with musicians complaints, but the fact that it DOES affect their performance. And, if you track whole bands, with acoustic instruments, that feeds and grows into a problem, and will ultimately affect the final result.

So. My options seem to be:
  • HW signal splitting, with every musician having individual mixers. That would be a problem for punching? Latency here would be zero...
  • HDX + Digi to AES format converter (HD I/O??). Seems vey expensive investment...
  • RME HDSPe MADI + RME MADI to AES format conversion. Monitoring done via TotalMix. Probaly less expensive that the HDX option, but still expensive. Won't have the advantages of HDX on PT HD.
  • Focusrite Rednet solution. Cheaper solution (?), but latency of 3.3 ms would be difficult to obtain in practice?
  • Ravenna or DAD solutions. Good options. Very expensive to implement.
  • Waves Soundgrid. If used just for low latency tracking, wouldn't it be almost the same as HW splitting the signal and a lot more expensive?
BTW my converter latency ADDA Round Trip would be about 1ms @ 96k.
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  #26  
Old 01-15-2016, 08:55 AM
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JFreak JFreak is offline
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

Oh come on...

Latency requirement of 3.3ms means traditional monitor would have to be less than one meter away and if artists ears are two metres away it would be a huge problem...
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  #27  
Old 01-15-2016, 09:38 AM
propower propower is offline
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

7seas

1) What hardware do you currently have? I don't know the RME line but it has a stellar reputation.

2) Are you willing to do monitor mixes in a parallel mixer for low latency or do you need Pro Tools to be the one and only software running.

3) If you can stand using a parallel mixer for monitoring what is wrong with total mix?

4) If you can't stand a parallel mixer - what is your budget?
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  #28  
Old 01-16-2016, 10:20 AM
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7Seas 7Seas is offline
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

Quote:
Originally Posted by JFreak View Post
Oh come on...

Latency requirement of 3.3ms means traditional monitor would have to be less than one meter away and if artists ears are two metres away it would be a huge problem...
Janne.
You have a point. However, listening with Headphones or IEM, somehow is different?? I don't have experience as I am not a musician, but the fact is, that at about 4 or 5 ms I start having consistent complaints, different musicians, different sessions. For me, personally, I would think that 7 to 8ms is acceptable. The fact though is that, in practice, things get better when I can somehow lower latencies. You can argue that a lot is placebo (and in many cases you may be correct ), but the problem exists, so it is a very REAL placebo...

Quote:
Originally Posted by propower View Post
7seas

1) What hardware do you currently have? I don't know the RME line but it has a stellar reputation.

2) Are you willing to do monitor mixes in a parallel mixer for low latency or do you need Pro Tools to be the one and only software running.

3) If you can stand using a parallel mixer for monitoring what is wrong with total mix?

4) If you can't stand a parallel mixer - what is your budget?
I use, for some years now RME HDSPe AES PCIe cards (x2), and am satisfied, stable, just works .Monitoring in parallel is a good option for those cases that musicians have problems with higher latencies. The problem with Totalmix is that it only routes inside 1 card, so I can only route 16chx16ch of each card. That is why I mention changing the interface to the RME HDSPe MADI FX that has enough ch. count in the same card. The problem is I would have to buy, beside the new interface a MADI to AES converter...This is a difficult investment to justify, as it not a new mic or pre, that directly affects the business, so I can, at most, spend around 1K. At that budget I seem only to have the HW splitting option available...and even that...
And after spending on good HP (Senn, Sony, Beyer...), and individual amps for each musician, it seems frustrating going the behriger personal mixer way...
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  #29  
Old 01-16-2016, 10:49 AM
propower propower is offline
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

Thanks for the explanation on the RME - I would have never guessed that!

Champagne and beer I am afraid

Personal monitor mixers that accommodate 32 channels are way out of this budget. The Behringer isn't a bad option for 16 ch but be aware that it is anther source of latency (not sure how much).

So you can already do 16ch on total mix so that is of course one option - keep the monitor mixes to 16 ch. A 32 ch analog console for splitting all your live inputs with multiple aux sends is an affordable option. EQ on every channel and you can add a reverb unit to it.

For the all digital approach I have to think a bit. If you don't already have HDN the Avid choices are less wonderful. If you would have to buy all new RME stufff things like Orion 32 come to mind. But I have experience only with AVID and DiGiGrid .
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  #30  
Old 01-16-2016, 01:33 PM
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

An old pci tdm system used only for tracking might almost be one of the cheaper option at this point...
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