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  #1  
Old 04-01-2020, 03:22 AM
XJENSEN XJENSEN is offline
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Default Setting up Cue Mixes with Persist Sends during LLM

Hi peeps,

Today I tried, once again, setting up a cue mix using Persist Sends during LLM, which, once again, failed miserably.
  • I have Case 03798415 open with Avid since 10/6/2019 (but reported related problems long before that, in other cases).
  • Last feedback from 12/10/2019 states reported issues are logged under PT-257177 and PT-236173, but to me it's totally untransparent what's actually been logged and when a fix is to be expected (and hopefully to the right problem).

Not being able to set up proper cue mixes is an absolute show stopper, so I don't understand what is taking so long.

Is there anyone that can provide more insight regarding this case / reported issues and possible escalate it? Would very much appreciate.

Cheers!
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  #2  
Old 04-01-2020, 02:27 PM
albee1952 albee1952 is offline
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Default Re: Setting up Cue Mixes with Persist Sends during LLM

Knowing the exact gear you are using might help get better advice. In any case, LLM is something that(for me) would only be used for a last-minute recording in a huge session that has forced me to use a high buffer setting(which would mean tons of latency without LLM).

For general tracking of players, skip LLM and set the playback buffer to 64 or 128. For several years, I ran a Nashville studio that tracked lots of full bands(drums, bass, multiple guitars, keys, vocalist) and the headphone system provided 6 stereo headphone mixes(so in most cases, each player got their own mix). That was done with AUX sends on all tracks in a session. Once you get mixes dialed in to where players are happy, save that session(without media) as a session template. That way, each time you create a new session(from that template), everyone's headphone mix is good right from the start(I rarely spent more than 2 minutes adjusting headphone mixes)

All the above requires is enough physical outputs and some way of powering the headphones. In my case, I used an ART HeadAmp Pro 6, but in an unusual way. It has 1 set of stereo inputs(on XLR's) that normally would feed all of the 6 outputs. Each of the 6 sections also includes a TRS input and a knob to balance between the main input(the XLR's) and the AUX input(the TRS). By setting those balance knobs all the way to the AUX side(on all but #1), I could feed separate mixes into those AUX inputs. So, HP1 was fed by the XLR inputs and 2 thru 6 were fed by separate signals to their respective AUX inputs. There are several headphone amps that can do the same(some with fewer possible outputs) but the beauty of the ART unit is that all the inputs are on the back(to keep cabling neat and hidden). As the engineer, I could patch my headphones into each of the 6 sections on the front panel so I could hear the exact same mix that went to each player
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  #3  
Old 04-04-2020, 05:30 AM
XJENSEN XJENSEN is offline
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Default Re: Setting up Cue Mixes with Persist Sends during LLM

Well, this is my current setup:

PT Ultimate 2020.3 - Mac OS X High Sierra 10.13.6
HD Native PCIe - HD OMNI - HD I/O 8x8x8 - HD I/O Analog 16
Artist Mix - Avid Dock - EUControl 20.1.0.50
Mac Pro 5,1 (Mid 2010) 2 x 2,4 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 24 GB 1066 MHz DDR3, ATI Radeon HD 5770 1024 MB

To me, being able to use LLM and high buffers is crucial, because I don't just do tracking, but am also producing with VIs at the same time. So I tend to require higher buffer settings to keep this going.

Like you said, I also have a template with Aux sends on every channel, that route to the LLM-enabled output. I also tried routing directly to that output from the tracks being overdubbed, but that also doesn't work.

So, on my system, LLM doesn't work as advertised and as described in the manual. This has been an ongoing headache and so far I have gotten no valuable input whatsoever from Avid support. This has been going on for years. I'm stuck with a huge investment in a system that does not work.

I tried everything. Swapping the HD Native card for another one. Connecting to another laptop using the HD Native Thunderbolt box. Complete reinstall of OS. Hardware check to verify RAM is correct. Reset NVRAM. Reset SMC. Switch to different PCIe slot. Strip all other cards, like UAD accelerator. All with the same result!

The only constant for now, is the OS and the PT software. So either of those must be the cause. I'm now planning on upgrading to a Metal capable GPU and to Mojave, to rule out the OS. But somehow I have little hope this will have any effect, because I have been on a fully qualified system all this time, and it never worked.

I have once again asked Avid support to take a proper look into this, because this is really an unacceptable situation.
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  #4  
Old 04-09-2020, 02:44 PM
XJENSEN XJENSEN is offline
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Default Re: Setting up Cue Mixes with Persist Sends during LLM

Update: Currently being looked at by Avid.

Currently still unable to set up proper monitor mixes with LLM.
Capabilities as advertised for HD Native are a fraud!
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  #5  
Old 04-09-2020, 03:37 PM
albee1952 albee1952 is offline
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Default Re: Setting up Cue Mixes with Persist Sends during LLM

Quote:
Originally Posted by XJENSEN View Post
Update: Currently being looked at by Avid.

Currently still unable to set up proper monitor mixes with LLM.
Capabilities as advertised for HD Native are a fraud!
Well, you seem bent on using something that isn't working, while I am trying to offer something that will work(or at least improve on what you have). You might consider off-loading some or all of your VI load with Vienna Pro, or maybe work more in Logic Pro(which all my Mac-using friends much prefer for large midi/VI production). Its also possible that the poor performance is the fault of Apple and not Avid. I have seen reports of the new Mac Pro(the one that starts at $6K) as having quite poor VI performance(sure, it could be Avid's fault too, but let's look for solutions).

Looking at your computer spec's, I'd say that 2.4GHz is kind of slow(speed matters more than number of cores in PT), and 24GB of RAM is a little light(32GB is a sensible minimum), a little slow(at 1066 clock) and a number that I'm guessing is probably the result of mixing different speeds of RAM(and maybe different brands?). Not sure how things work on the Mac side, but I know on PC's, multi-channel memory gives the best performance when all sticks of RAM are the exact same model and size I have also seen many reports that disabling Hyperthreading improves performance and stability by a large amount

Last thing to look at is what VI plugins you are using. Some are absolute power hogs, like KeyScape. As much as I love the sound of that plugin, I tend to do my midi recording using MiniGrand until the part is all fleshed out. Then, I switch to KeyScape and commit the track so KeyScape doesn't drag the system to its knees
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  #6  
Old 04-09-2020, 04:09 PM
XJENSEN XJENSEN is offline
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Default Re: Setting up Cue Mixes with Persist Sends during LLM

albee1952, I appreciate you trying to help me out, I really do!

You have some interesting points, but my problem is not at all performance related. Something seems to be really off with the HD Native / LLM part. The VIs are really not the problem. I used that as an example of latency inducing factors, but they may as well be plugins like Maxim. In the simplest of sessions with just a vocal and guitar track. I get double signals, signals cutting out, totally inconsistent behaviour.

And you are right, I'm bent on using the system with the capabilities as advertised by Avid. But after years of useless 'support', and still not getting it to work, you understand why I'm feeling scammed. And I really feel scammed.

There is one 'Ultimate' thing to try for me, and that's to fit in an HDX card. I will definitely try this, although it's little salvation over the fact that the system I initially bought just does not work. I'm also not sure whether I want to spend any additional money on this kind of company, Avid.

And rest assured, I'm by far the only one having this problem. I hear similar sounds from people close around me. Something is very wrong with the Avid hardware / software. But even worse is their inability to properly solve it. I have some of these issues open for over 3 years now. And don't get me started about the continuing MIDI problems.

Do you think this is normal? I certainly don't. It's beneath contempt.
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  #7  
Old 04-09-2020, 08:05 PM
capt kirk capt kirk is offline
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Default Re: Setting up Cue Mixes with Persist Sends during LLM

As a last ditch effort, and coming from a person who finally figured this out years ago. Try to , if you can, to test the voltage getting to your system power, over periods of time. or even better, try a serious battery backup/regulater..... We were in a building , years ago, that had AC power on the same leg as a lot of industrial, and by golly if it wasnt causing all kinds of glitches/crashes, for no reason. Brown outs are worse than blackouts.....get your self a test system, and see if it still happens.....its a life boat attempt.....some computers are SERIOUSLY sensitive to voltage droops or switching inducted spikes which go right by other computers.
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Old 04-09-2020, 08:06 PM
capt kirk capt kirk is offline
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Default Re: Setting up Cue Mixes with Persist Sends during LLM

I'm assuming you've unhooked the internet, and wireless also....
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  #9  
Old 04-09-2020, 08:08 PM
capt kirk capt kirk is offline
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Default Re: Setting up Cue Mixes with Persist Sends during LLM

you may have power supply issues wth that computer ,as well, that cannot be diagnosed by the average person/audio engineer
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  #10  
Old 04-10-2020, 12:56 AM
XJENSEN XJENSEN is offline
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Default Re: Setting up Cue Mixes with Persist Sends during LLM

Thanks everyone for the further input.

Indeed, I have rigorously followed the Pro Tools optimisation guide. Only thing wireless enabled is Bluetooth for my keyboard and mouse. No other devices connected.

I also tested with different Macs, including a MacBook Pro.
I also tested using the Thunderbolt version of HD Native. Exactly the same problem.
I did a complete reinstall with but Pro Tools and EUCON installed. Same problem.
I stripped everything off / out the Mac (UAD cards). Same problem.

So, I think we can rule out the more obvious / power / ... reasons.

I have a hunch it's either the Pro Tools software messing up the LLM or there's something wrong with the HD Native cards and boxes. I could try to upgrade the machine to Mojave (including Metal GPU) but very much guess that will be another dead end.
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