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  #181  
Old 04-01-2004, 07:37 PM
The Eggman The Eggman is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

[QUOTE]
Quote:
So, what makes your Pro Tools-based studio so different from the guy down the street running the same hardware and software? Nothing. There are people advertising that they have "Pro Tools" at their studio when all they have is a digi001 and PT LE. All of the sudden, you're gonna hafta compete with every kid that owns an LE, Mix or HD system. Who's gonna fold now when you hafta adjust your rates to compete? You're competing with all the other Pro Tools studios....from the kid in his basement to other guys like yourself.

This is why I don't think ICON is the end of the professional studio (the one with the large-format analog desk, class A outboard gear, 2" tape machine and Pro Tools). ICON adds nothing to the picture...just a few more knobs and faders at a ridiculous price. It's the beginning of the "pretend studio." Virtual, indeed!
S2N/Studio,

Dude, I don't think we're going to be able to help you see the light. You are obviously inexperienced in general business and in the studio business, as well. Yes, everyone is going to have ProTools. In case you hadn't noticed, almost everyone does already. Now, do you REALLY think that Sheryl Crow is going to go to the inexpensive basement ProTools LE? OR, is she going to go into a REAL studio with the full blown TDM/Icon system? If you think that all people give a [bleep] about is the lowest priced studio, you're dead wrong. Why do people seem to prefer the much more expensive iPod than the cheap alternatives? Why do people buy BMW's and Mercedes? Don't they know that a Hyundai will get them to the same place? Many, if not most, of the major artists, producers and engineers DO NOT WANT TO WORK IN SOMEONE'S BASEMENT! THEY WANT A REAL STUDIO ENVIRONMENT! And don't tell me that's because of the analog gear...THEY ARE ALREADY RECORDING EXCLUSIVELY IN PROTOOLS!

You mentioned Rage in an earlier post. Well, when they were making records, there were TONS of home studios with reasonable analog gear. BUT, they still chose to spend a lot of their time in a "real" studio environment. Why? Because of all the reasons I posted earlier (good monitoring, good tech staff, good environment, blah, blah). And by the way, you made a point of them working in analog. What you failed to mention was that their last real album was Battle for Los Angeles, released in Nov '99. That was BEFORE ProTools really took off in the pro market!

I suppose that if you're not working at the top level of the industry, I couldn't expect to you to have much knowledge about how these people think and how they work. You mentioned JJP in an earlier post. Do you know that when I attended his party way back in Sept of 2002, HE WAS ALREADY INSISTING THAT ALL FILES COME TO HIM IN PROTOOLS FORMAT...NO 2", NO DIGITAL, NO NOTHING BUT PROTOOLS. This has been true of both Lord-Alges for years, as well. If I had told you four years ago that major mixers would soon INSIST ON ALL PT FILES, you would have said the exact same thing you're saying now "hey, why would major mixers change their method...ain't gonna happen...you'll see Eggman...they LOVE the sound of analog". dude, you're friggin' lost in all this. You're so far off base that I don't think we can help you. I mean, you got to bring at least some intelligence to the table, here.

So, if you're here to exchange ideas, no problem. Everyone here does appreciate all views. And if you are going to continue to believe that analog studios are going to thrive because they are NOT what the kid has in his basement, well then, good luck to you. Perhaps you'll do better than all the major analog studios who are tanking as we speak...
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  #182  
Old 04-01-2004, 11:31 PM
s2n s2n is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

Quote:
S2N/Studio,

Dude, I don't think we're going to be able to help you see the light. You are obviously inexperienced in general business and in the studio business, as well.
Spending $60k for a 16-fader control surface makes business sense?! What school of business did you attend?

Quote:
Yes, everyone is going to have ProTools. In case you hadn't noticed, almost everyone does already. Now, do you REALLY think that Sheryl Crow is going to go to the inexpensive basement ProTools LE? OR, is she going to go into a REAL studio with the full blown TDM/Icon system?
She'll most likely have her Pro Tools tracks (some recorded to 2" then transferred...some recorded direct into PT) stemmed out to an SSL. Just like she did on her last album.

Quote:
If you think that all people give a [bleep] about is the lowest priced studio, you're dead wrong. Why do people seem to prefer the much more expensive iPod than the cheap alternatives? Why do people buy BMW's and Mercedes? Don't they know that a Hyundai will get them to the same place? Many, if not most, of the major artists, producers and engineers DO NOT WANT TO WORK IN SOMEONE'S BASEMENT! THEY WANT A REAL STUDIO ENVIRONMENT! And don't tell me that's because of the analog gear...THEY ARE ALREADY RECORDING EXCLUSIVELY IN PROTOOLS!
You missed my point. It could be a kid in his basement, a guy in a room with a little ISO booth or a 4th "writers" room at a major studio....the Pro Tools sound is the same through and through. Same plugins. Same mix bus. You think having an ICON is gonna make engineers flock to your studio just cause it's got a bunch of knobs and faders? The BIG question is: what ADVANTAGE does an ICON bring to a studio compared to one that has (for example) a Control24? ABSOLUTELY ZERO! $60k for 16-faders? How much do you think you're gonna be able to charge per hour compared to the guy down the street with the same Pro Tools setup and a Control24?

Another question to ask youself is: what does ICON bring to the SOUND of Pro Tools that is going to make mix engineers MIX in Pro Tools? It's not a convenience factor to stem out tracks to an SSL, if convenience is what you're trying to get at here. ICON isn't gonna be used for it's convenience, for the same reason Pro Control didn't change anybody's mind. Why? Nobody likes to mix in Pro Tools cause it sounds like @ss. And, AUTO DELAY COMPENSATION isn't gonna fix this problem either...so keep on dreamin' everybody.

Quote:
You mentioned Rage in an earlier post. Well, when they were making records, there were TONS of home studios with reasonable analog gear. BUT, they still chose to spend a lot of their time in a "real" studio environment. Why? Because of all the reasons I posted earlier (good monitoring, good tech staff, good environment, blah, blah). And by the way, you made a point of them working in analog. What you failed to mention was that their last real album was Battle for Los Angeles, released in Nov '99. That was BEFORE ProTools really took off in the pro market!
Mixed on an SSL. Not mixed in Pro Tools. ICON isn't gonna change this.

Quote:
I suppose that if you're not working at the top level of the industry, I couldn't expect to you to have much knowledge about how these people think and how they work. You mentioned JJP in an earlier post. Do you know that when I attended his party way back in Sept of 2002, HE WAS ALREADY INSISTING THAT ALL FILES COME TO HIM IN PROTOOLS FORMAT...NO 2", NO DIGITAL, NO NOTHING BUT PROTOOLS. This has been true of both Lord-Alges for years, as well. If I had told you four years ago that major mixers would soon INSIST ON ALL PT FILES, you would have said the exact same thing you're saying now "hey, why would major mixers change their method...ain't gonna happen...you'll see Eggman...they LOVE the sound of analog". dude, you're friggin' lost in all this. You're so far off base that I don't think we can help you. I mean, you got to bring at least some intelligence to the table, here.
Tells us all then: how is ICON gonna change the way people MIX? You think JJP or the Lord-Alges are gonna insist on mixing in ICON? Not gonna happen.

Quote:
So, if you're here to exchange ideas, no problem. Everyone here does appreciate all views. And if you are going to continue to believe that analog studios are going to thrive because they are NOT what the kid has in his basement, well then, good luck to you. Perhaps you'll do better than all the major analog studios who are tanking as we speak...
You're delusional. ICON, regardless of how many knobs or faders it has, is NOT going to convince ANYBODY to start mixing in Pro Tools. JJP, the Lord-Alges, Wallace, Ogilvie et al, all have a signature SOUND that they'll stick to. It's the reason why they get the work. NONE OF THEM MIX IN PRO TOOLS. ICON isn't gonna change the way records are mixed, cause all it's doing is controlling Pro Tools...the audio is STILL passing through the much maligned Pro Tools MIX BUS.

So, tell me, what great sounding records where MIXED ENTIRELY IN PRO TOOLS? Point me to some, and you'll convince me....and a lot of other people.

Like I said in an earlier post: ICON's market is the post-pro/film market. They'll gobble it up.

Have fun with your ICON.
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  #183  
Old 04-02-2004, 06:10 AM
johnnyv johnnyv is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

Hey guys...I'll jump in here.

Interestingly, I think that the D-Control will end up being very popular in high level studios in which overdubs will take place. I believe this because basically everyone is recording into PT and simply using the studio console for playback of audio because it happens to be sitting there in the middle of the room. For the overdubbing process, those engineers are using mic pre's of the choice (say, 1073's or whatever) going to outboard eq and/or compression. I think that many engineers would prefer it if the large frame analog console were yanked out and replaced with a large frame PT controller (I agree with Eggie...the ProControl and Control24 were simply not "pro" enough for a lot of the working engineers). Now I'm sure that S2N is going to bring up that if a studio did replace their mid-level SSL with a D-Control, then sonically they'd have the same thing as the kid down the street and yes, that is true. BUT, it is already true basically, because everyone is overdubbing using external pre's etc. and simply using the house console for playback. SO, the kid down the street could have the exact same mic chain going into PT and some clients will take their business there. But the top level clients are very service and environment driven, wanting to work in nice places with runners, secretaries and the general amenities of a commercial studio. So I think the product will be a hit there.

I also think that over time, even the big mixing engineers will begin to migrate. Do I think that PT sounds as glorious as good old 2"? NO, I don't. But, if the people who are the busiest in this industry are concerned only with audio integrity, we most likely wouldn't have left tape based systems behind for DAW systems. For a lot of people in the biz, convenience is becoming more and more a factor in their work (over sound considerations), so I think that it's only a matter of time before some of the big mixers take the bold step onto the D-Control, and once one of them does it, they'll all get wind and want to give it a try.

Just my two cents...

carry on.

J
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  #184  
Old 04-02-2004, 06:16 AM
Kenny Gioia Kenny Gioia is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

Great Post s2n.

Here is the big problem. Yeah it's cheaper than a new SSL. But it's not cheaper than a used SSL.

With studios dying the way that they are, there's gonna be alot of SSL's available. At this price point.

If they could have stuck below the $100,000 mark, full featured, than I think they have a market. Trying to get the Tom Lord Alge's and Bob Clearmountains is a mistake. They demand the best. They don't want to downgrade.

Yes, I am happy with my Control24. I had a 24 fader Pro Control ($30,000) but I preferred the control24. more faders in the sweet spot.

The days of spending 3 months in a Posh studio are over. Cheaper project studios are the present and future of music. Even ask those mixers. I bet they're working less and less. The budgets just aren't there anymore. Real records are being released mixed in LE systems. And people are making them sound pretty good.

We're in an economic crisis and cheaply made records are gonna be the norm for awhile. The place people are spending lots of money right now is Analog Outboard gear. Making Pro Tools a usable recording medium.

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  #185  
Old 04-02-2004, 06:29 AM
Kenny Gioia Kenny Gioia is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

Quote:
so I think that it's only a matter of time before some of the big mixers take the bold step onto the D-Control, and once one of them does it, they'll all get wind and want to give it a try.

J
Very true. Than they'll go back to there Analog consoles.

What is the huge advantage for these Mixers?

They're still gonna use 20 to 40 outboard EQ's and compressors because they are better than plug ins.

They're still gonna use outboard delays and Reverbs which they are completely accustomed to.

They're still gonna mix thru an Outboard Analog compressor. Because they're better too.

So exactly when do they benefit from the "Total Recall" in five minutes thing?

Are you expecting them to throw out they're complete Toolbox and start over?

Silly.
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  #186  
Old 04-02-2004, 07:54 AM
thestudio thestudio is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

"EGGMAN
Quote:
Dude, I don't think we're going to be able to help you see the light. You are obviously inexperienced in general business and in the studio business, as well. Yes, everyone is going to have ProTools. In case you hadn't noticed, almost everyone does already.
Yes, everyone has PT but they mix through an analog console and many are recorded into PT than dump to analog and mix again through an analog console. Maybe your not experience enough? I believe your not comprehending what actual studio's are running and how the industry is changing which "Produceher" has posted in this thread.

Do you have an SSL or Neve for sale or are you working on a 002 or 001?


For a person who starts a sentence with "DUDE" and who name drops I would question your experience in business.....
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  #187  
Old 04-02-2004, 09:21 AM
THE MASTER THE MASTER is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

I had Pro Tools.
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  #188  
Old 04-02-2004, 12:48 PM
hurdy gurdy hurdy gurdy is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

Johnny v wrote:
"Top level clients are very service and environment driven, wanting to work in nice places with runners, secretaries and the general amenities of a commercial studio".

BINGO!
Other than that there will be no escaping the wiz kid down the street with outboard gear into P.Tools.
It's a real pain in the @$$ to wear all those hats of say artist, engineer, editor, mixer and mastering engineer. That's a tough gig to pull off, and some pretty big shoes (plural) to fill to do it correctly.
Top level clients WILL NOT have those logistical headaches when they can pay someone else to have them. Why would they, they are more concerned (and should be) with doing what they do best.
Furthermore, many pros when shopping for a studio (even a small one) will explicitly state "no bedrooms or basements please"! However, there will be a "clown with a credit card" as the gap narrows with price, gear, and affordable digital technology. At the same time, someone every so often will pull off a great record with items you buy off the shelf everyday -it's happened with analog gear and demos too.
Nice arguments though.
L.A.Branville

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  #189  
Old 04-02-2004, 02:40 PM
DC2light DC2light is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

THIS is a repeat and may also get pulled again from this forum (geez, and I left a communist country just to get axed here as well for my opinion) but $60k-$120k is a lot of money for a pretty new mouse. Digi your doing a lot of great things and I know that you can not please everybody all the time but come on who is this pleasing? I want a desk that replaces the tedium of setting up an SSL or what ever but come on no patchbay with there own D/A's-A/D's ect? What were they thinking? Believe me I'm more then ecstatic about auto delay compensation and many of the new fetures that are being made available for P.T., but the whole point (for me) in using a large desk is the ability to patch in and out my various configurations and with the speed, flexibility and control that only comes from large format desks. (more specifically SSL's) I have to look at this product more in the Procontrol niche but not at that price. This does not replace an SSL in my book. Yes some large/medium size houses will be forced to buy some of these because of the psycology that goes on with the competitve nature of the biz but as a whole ... at that price...?

Maybe what got me yancked from this discussion before was the "I bet it has a pretty Vegas Mode though" comment. A little sarcasm won't kill you Dig! Perhaps just make you think? I am an avid supporter of Digi ever since the original Drumulator chips days so we go way back together and I know that every company makes both good and bad decisions but this one really frustrated me. I sold my SSL in preparation for this product. Now I will stick to a Procontrol and maybe a few more 192's now that Auto Delay Comp is for real. Oh well, flame on if you wish folks.
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  #190  
Old 04-02-2004, 04:23 PM
The Eggman The Eggman is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

Quote:
Great Post s2n.

Here is the big problem. Yeah it's cheaper than a new SSL. But it's not cheaper than a used SSL.

With studios dying the way that they are, there's gonna be alot of SSL's available. At this price point.

If they could have stuck below the $100,000 mark, full featured, than I think they have a market. Trying to get the Tom Lord Alge's and Bob Clearmountains is a mistake. They demand the best. They don't want to downgrade.

The days of spending 3 months in a Posh studio are over. Cheaper project studios are the present and future of music. Even ask those mixers. I bet they're working less and less. The budgets just aren't there anymore. Real records are being released mixed in LE systems. And people are making them sound pretty good.

We're in an economic crisis and cheaply made records are gonna be the norm for awhile. The place people are spending lots of money right now is Analog Outboard gear. Making Pro Tools a usable recording medium.


Prod, generally speaking, I agree with your post here. And yes, I anticipate that there will be a sizable drop in used SSL prices, so if you're after one, or if S2N/Studio is after one, it will be a buyer's market here over the next 6-12 months. Not necessarily because of the D-Control, but because I think we're going to see a lot of studios biting the dust. Basically, everything you've said is good stuff, although I still do not agree with you that Digi is after the wrong market. They surely won't get Bob because of the Apogee/soured relationship thing, but guys like Tom are WAY into PT. I know Tom well, and without saying too much about his methods, I think you'd probably be surprised to learn how little of the SSL he's actually using. Now I'm not saying that to imply that Tom is planning to move to an Icon in the near future, but in his case and others like it, I wouldn't rule it out over the next 12-24 months. Then again, maybe he'll be mixing on an SSL for the rest of his life. We'll just have to see on that.

But that's not really the point anyway. With or without guys like Tom, I believe that there are already a lot of people who really have wanted to mix in PT, but would not do so without a substantial surface. And I believe that the Icon will address them nicely. Once it is installed into some nice rooms, I do think that those rooms will see steady bookings. But, we can all debate this until we're blue in the face and not come to a real conclusion without the future simply playing itself out. And I will be the first to admit that I misjudged the market if it ends up that nearly all the people simply continue mixing on SSL's.

It will be interesting...

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