Definitely going carbon - VI latency questions

[TNM]

Have thought about it on and off for the past year, have always decided against it as I was a multiple DAW user and had way too many external inputs I needed, but now that I have massively trimmed down my studio, I can actually get away with one carbon unit. Now that I am on Mac and using Pro Tools only and all my UAD stuff is for sale, ditto. Carbon finally makes the most sense.

However, there are simply things I can not test as it's not like you can download a demo of an interface. I do know most things I need to know except the following, and if anyone can help, thank you very much in advance indeed.

Now, although the only DAW I will ever do new projects in is Pro Tools, and I am getting rid of all other DAWs I have tried over the years after leaving Logic in 2018, I still have 151 Logic projects going back to the mid 90's with Logic 3.0 (then I opened and resaved them on 5.5.1 back in the day, so Logic 11 can actually open all of them, anything from V5).

Does Carbon have a core audio driver that I can use in Logic, as I have unfinished compositions that I am not going to spend hours with converting to PT when they are just ready to go in Logic. If yes, IS that core audio driver reliable? Does anyone use a carbon with Logic?

The only other thing I want to know is regarding PT itself. I understand now how the DSP monitoring works, and I have the plugin alliance full bundle which has over 80 DSP effects, so I am really well covered for all my external input monitoring with ultra low latency. I'll probably update my MCDSP native bundle to DSP as well just to have an alternative. I know about mixing native plugins with it and how it affects latency etc.

What I DON'T understand is how Carbon works with Virtual Instruments. There's just no specs anywhere about it the output latency for native plugins. Output latency is what entirely dictates the latency between pressing a key on a midi KB and hearing the sound from the plugin synth.

Does anyone have any idea if Carbon performs adequately in this area and does anyone else here use it for that? I have been concerned that most carbon users might be entirely hadrware based, where as I am now going much more towards an in the box setup, hence, I will be using a LOT of virtual instruments.
My Apollo at 128 samples/48K is 3.8ms real output latency to play VI's, and the performance is exceptional. There's no need to go lower than 128 because 3.8ms is faster than most digital hardware synths anyway.

This is the only thing that is really concerning me about it all, that I want good response time and cpu performance when playing VI's through Carbon.

If anyone can answer this, again, THANK you so much! Cheers

[massivekerry]

Originally Posted by TNM

Have thought about it on and off for the past year, have always decided against it as I was a multiple DAW user and had way too many external inputs I needed, but now that I have massively trimmed down my studio, I can actually get away with one carbon unit. Now that I am on Mac and using Pro Tools only and all my UAD stuff is for sale, ditto. Carbon finally makes the most sense.

However, there are simply things I can not test as it's not like you can download a demo of an interface. I do know most things I need to know except the following, and if anyone can help, thank you very much in advance indeed.

Now, although the only DAW I will ever do new projects in is Pro Tools, and I am getting rid of all other DAWs I have tried over the years after leaving Logic in 2018, I still have 151 Logic projects going back to the mid 90's with Logic 3.0 (then I opened and resaved them on 5.5.1 back in the day, so Logic 11 can actually open all of them, anything from V5).

Does Carbon have a core audio driver that I can use in Logic, as I have unfinished compositions that I am not going to spend hours with converting to PT when they are just ready to go in Logic. If yes, IS that core audio driver reliable? Does anyone use a carbon with Logic?

The only other thing I want to know is regarding PT itself. I understand now how the DSP monitoring works, and I have the plugin alliance full bundle which has over 80 DSP effects, so I am really well covered for all my external input monitoring with ultra low latency. I'll probably update my MCDSP native bundle to DSP as well just to have an alternative. I know about mixing native plugins with it and how it affects latency etc.

What I DON'T understand is how Carbon works with Virtual Instruments. There's just no specs anywhere about it the output latency for native plugins. Output latency is what entirely dictates the latency between pressing a key on a midi KB and hearing the sound from the plugin synth.

Does anyone have any idea if Carbon performs adequately in this area and does anyone else here use it for that? I have been concerned that most carbon users might be entirely hadrware based, where as I am now going much more towards an in the box setup, hence, I will be using a LOT of virtual instruments.
My Apollo at 128 samples/48K is 3.8ms real output latency to play VI's, and the performance is exceptional. There's no need to go lower than 128 because 3.8ms is faster than most digital hardware synths anyway.

This is the only thing that is really concerning me about it all, that I want good response time and cpu performance when playing VI's through Carbon.

If anyone can answer this, again, THANK you so much! Cheers

I'm a full-time composer with Pro Tools, using tons of VIs, and a load of in-the-box processing. I switched from HD-Native to Carbon almost 2 years ago, going to a Mac Studio. Zero regrets. No real problems to speak of. VI performance is snappy (unless you're using an orchestral instrument that has loads of pre-delay - like AudioBro's Modern Scoring Strings, but that's a workflow that they put in, and documented how to work with). I generally run a buffer of 256 so that when I load up Ozone and Gullfoss at the end, things don't suddenly come to a screeching halt, and it's totally responsive. I may switch down to a buffer of 128 if I'm playing guitar through an Amp Sim that doesn't support DSP - and even that feels completely natural. DSP recording is uncanny. I had gotten so used to a minor slap when I was tracking vocals that now I sometimes wonder if I'm actually hearing the vocal or if I'm just hearing myself. (Yes, I'm hearing the vocal, it's just real-time).

As for Logic/otherDAW/System Audio, Carbon installs with 2 drivers - one that is specific to Pro Tools and utilizes the DSP, and one that everything else can use. Both can even be used at the same time. It's described in t he documentation, and once installed, you can see it in the Audio MIDI Setup app. I have not tried running multiple outputs from another DAW, just the stereo mix down, but it works fine.

The mic pres also sound -surprisingly- good. I'd guess you're used to that with an Apollo, but recording acoustic instruments via the mic pres (with a good mic) has me wondering at whether I need my Great Rivers or not.

I'm attaching 3 screenshots - the Audio MIDI Setup window showing the "drivers", the Audio Settings for Logic, the Playback Engine for Pro Tools. This should help you "see" what I'm talking about with the separate drivers. Also, it can be tricky to figure out at first (I'll send you screenshots once you're getting setup if you like) but I like having the CoreAudio driver using my Carbon "MAIN" output for my Mac System audio, and then adjust how my Pro Tools outputs show up on the other outputs.

[TNM]

Originally Posted by massivekerry

I'm a full-time composer with Pro Tools, using tons of VIs, and a load of in-the-box processing. I switched from HD-Native to Carbon almost 2 years ago, going to a Mac Studio. Zero regrets. No real problems to speak of. VI performance is snappy (unless you're using an orchestral instrument that has loads of pre-delay - like AudioBro's Modern Scoring Strings, but that's a workflow that they put in, and documented how to work with). I generally run a buffer of 256 so that when I load up Ozone and Gullfoss at the end, things don't suddenly come to a screeching halt, and it's totally responsive. I may switch down to a buffer of 128 if I'm playing guitar through an Amp Sim that doesn't support DSP - and even that feels completely natural. DSP recording is uncanny. I had gotten so used to a minor slap when I was tracking vocals that now I sometimes wonder if I'm actually hearing the vocal or if I'm just hearing myself. (Yes, I'm hearing the vocal, it's just real-time).

As for Logic/otherDAW/System Audio, Carbon installs with 2 drivers - one that is specific to Pro Tools and utilizes the DSP, and one that everything else can use. Both can even be used at the same time. It's described in t he documentation, and once installed, you can see it in the Audio MIDI Setup app. I have not tried running multiple outputs from another DAW, just the stereo mix down, but it works fine.

The mic pres also sound -surprisingly- good. I'd guess you're used to that with an Apollo, but recording acoustic instruments via the mic pres (with a good mic) has me wondering at whether I need my Great Rivers or not.

I'm attaching 3 screenshots - the Audio MIDI Setup window showing the "drivers", the Audio Settings for Logic, the Playback Engine for Pro Tools. This should help you "see" what I'm talking about with the separate drivers. Also, it can be tricky to figure out at first (I'll send you screenshots once you're getting setup if you like) but I like having the CoreAudio driver using my Carbon "MAIN" output for my Mac System audio, and then adjust how my Pro Tools outputs show up on the other outputs.

Wow what a detailed reply telling me everything I needed to know. THANK YOU SO MUCH! Very kind of you.

3.6ms output at 128 buffer in Logic is very good indeed, so it should be similar in pro tools. I didn't know you could choose buffer size in pro tools for carbon, so that makes it a bit more versatile depending on the size of the project. If it's not something truly taxing the system, then 64 buffer for example may be fine and will mean VI's are extremely responsive to play with the midi keyboard.

But 128 has always seemed like the overall best balance to me with most interfaces. I think 256 might be a bit high for me for VI's, as I am quite sensitive to real time keyboard playing latency, and near 8ms is just a bit much IMO (for me I mean, YMMV).

I actually don't think I'll ever need to monitor with any native plugins, so that's good. The very rare guitar part I might have recorded once in a blue moon will be well covered by the plugin alliance DSP amps.

BTW did Avid ever update the Eleven plugin for Apple Silicon? Do you know by any chance?

The pics are great, thanks, and give me the info I wanted. So good!

Now, I have never used an ethernet interface before, I have used firewire, USB 2, USB 3, Thunderbolt 2 and 3 but never ethernet.

Because I'll only be using the one Carbon interface for the entire studio room, do I need to worry about ethernet switches and all that jazz or can the carbon just plug straight into the ethernet port of the mac studio? I guess that's the only thing I still need to know. Is using an ethernet interface as simple as just plugging it in and powering it up and installing any necessary software?

Cheers!

PS What was your sample rate?

[smurfyou]

I think Kerry gave you the best answer you could hope for from a user perspective.

To your further questions -

The Eleven plugin is Apple Silicon native. The hardware Eleven Rack was abandoned.

For Carbon you would dedicate one ethernet connection to it. Direct connection only to it.. I assume the Studio's internal ethernet is compatible but Avid can tell you which external peripherals are if you want to use the internal for networking.

[K Roche]

Originally Posted by TNM

Now, I have never used an ethernet interface before, I have used firewire, USB 2, USB 3, Thunderbolt 2 and 3 but never ethernet.

Because I'll only be using the one Carbon interface for the entire studio room, do I need to worry about ethernet switches and all that jazz or can the carbon just plug straight into the ethernet port of the mac studio? I guess that's the only thing I still need to know. Is using an ethernet interface as simple as just plugging it in and powering it up and installing any necessary software?

Cheers!

PS What was your sample rate?

So I don't use Logic but Studio One works just fine with Carbon on Core Audio

Yes the ethernet connection is plug and play . I just connect the first ethernet connection (on the Carbon) directly into my iMac ethernet port (see my system below) , (the second ethernet connection on the Carbon is for expanding to a Carbon Pre for 8 more analog connections and converters

When you first connect and start the Carbon (depending on what Pro Tools version you are running and what firmware the Carbon ships with ) it will may have to update the firmware (which it also does automatically, and does with any new version of PT )

Now IMO another great feature of Carbon (which you may or may not already know) is that while you can only run 8 simultaneous analog channels (it has only 8 converters) BUT You can connect up 16 analog channels total, without having to switch any cables .

So depending on how much (if any) outboard hardware units you may have, you can have 8 XLR input connections and 8 in and out, DB-25 connections.
And the XLR connections will override the DB-25
So for example you could have up to 8 channels outboard Hardware effects on the DB-25 but as soon you plug in a mic to an XLR the XLR will take precedent over the DB-25 on that channel

[massivekerry]

Originally Posted by TNM

Wow what a detailed reply telling me everything I needed to know. THANK YOU SO MUCH! Very kind of you.

My pleasure. You're welcome.

Originally Posted by TNM

But 128 has always seemed like the overall best balance to me with most interfaces. I think 256 might be a bit high for me for VI's, as I am quite sensitive to real time keyboard playing latency, and near 8ms is just a bit much IMO (for me I mean, YMMV).

I've never measured the latency when playing VIs. I had a watched a video with Trevor Morris a few years ago, when he went all-in-one with Cubase and VEP on a 2019 Mac Pro, and said he found 256 to be suitable so I tried it, and don't really notice any keyboard latency at that rate. I'm using a 1st-gen NI Komplete Control keyboard (but not the KK software) as my controller, with a Launchpad XL for CC faders and knobs. My MIDI input default on Instrument Tracks is "ALL". 128 usually works as well. I don't notice any practical difference (with Delay Comp turned on) except that at 128 I sometimes have to bump up the buffer when I'm adding my final mix processing (usually the big look-ahead stuff like soothe2, Ozone, etc). Much less common at 256.

Originally Posted by TNM

BTW did Avid ever update the Eleven plugin for Apple Silicon? Do you know by any chance?

Yes. Works great for most things when I'm tracking.

Now, I have never used an ethernet interface before, I have used firewire, USB 2, USB 3, Thunderbolt 2 and 3 but never ethernet.

Originally Posted by TNM

Because I'll only be using the one Carbon interface for the entire studio room, do I need to worry about ethernet switches and all that jazz or can the carbon just plug straight into the ethernet port of the mac studio? I guess that's the only thing I still need to know. Is using an ethernet interface as simple as just plugging it in and powering it up and installing any necessary software?

Yes. It's plug & play. If you have multiple units (with a Carbon Pre) you need the Carbon Central app, but with just one, I have always just used the Audio MIDI Setup and the settings in Pro Tools (Playback Engine, Hardware Setup, IO Settings). I do have a TB3-Ethernet dongle as well, because I have my computer on a gigabit switch on my network (for fast backups to another room) and I have an S1 that needs that connection, but the WiFi also serves all internet needs just fine as well if you don't have my particular setup. That dongle is the Sonnet AVB one, the idea being that on the edge chance that I may need to use my laptop for some reason I could use the Carbon. It's basically insurance, because my deadlines can be crazy.

Originally Posted by TNM

PS What was your sample rate?

I generally run at 48kHz with 32-bit depth.



2 additional minor things to note:

- I'm running Ventura because of the non-certification of Sonoma by Avid. You can read Mark Corbin's commentary on it in various threads in this sub-forum, but it kind of boils down to: pretty much works, but has the rare dropped sample so he decided not to certify it, and his discussions with Apple have focused on making it work with the upcoming OS, since they're stopped new work on Sonoma. Ventura works fine. No complaints. Apparently Sonoma is 99.5% solid as well.

- I have had a rare occasional thing where I installed an app that required system reboot, but then the Carbon wasn't passing audio and I either had to shut down and restart the entire rig, or turn the Carbon off and on and then click the Carbon on and off in the AVB window of the Audio MIDI setup. This has only happened maybe 3-4 times in 2 years and isn't a killer for me. I just guess that the Mac Studio boots so fast that some things don't catch up fast enough in a restart. I also usually lose connection to one of my USB-3 local HDD backups when that happens.

[TNM]

Brilliant again, thanks so much. My mac studio came with sonoma and is locked out of anything earlier, so I have no choice. I'd actually prefer running ventura as I know it "just works" with everything audio.

[TNM]

Originally Posted by K Roche

So I don't use Logic but Studio One works just fine with Carbon on Core Audio

Yes the ethernet connection is plug and play . I just connect the first ethernet connection (on the Carbon) directly into my iMac ethernet port (see my system below) , (the second ethernet connection on the Carbon is for expanding to a Carbon Pre for 8 more analog connections and converters

When you first connect and start the Carbon (depending on what Pro Tools version you are running and what firmware the Carbon ships with ) it will may have to update the firmware (which it also does automatically, and does with any new version of PT )

Now IMO another great feature of Carbon (which you may or may not already know) is that while you can only run 8 simultaneous analog channels (it has only 8 converters) BUT You can connect up 16 analog channels total, without having to switch any cables .

So depending on how much (if any) outboard hardware units you may have, you can have 8 XLR input connections and 8 in and out, DB-25 connections.
And the XLR connections will override the DB-25
So for example you could have up to 8 channels outboard Hardware effects on the DB-25 but as soon you plug in a mic to an XLR the XLR will take precedent over the DB-25 on that channel

Right thanks so much
Also a quick shout out to say thanks to @smurfyou for the reply.

So my situation is that I ran a large hardware synth studio and I hate patch bays, and the way my template was set up, every synth had a real time input ready to go at the selection of a midi track. I had 64 Apollo ins and an extra 44 analog via a 32 and 12 channel mixer. Now I have trimmed way down, WAY down. So I do have multiple focusrite octopre dynamic MK 2, and I will use two of those into the carbon for an extra 16 ins, for 24 analog total. But I am giving myself some space if I ever find a synth I must just have again some day, but right now I have managed to whittle it down to 16 real time ins, plus one reserved for vocals, so 17 which would leave me 7 with the Carbon to expand.

The Carbon is 6 grand here, and the pre not far off, so I won't be getting the pre. It will be one Carbon, it's just too much. My health took a turn for the worse in 2019 and I stopped music completely till I came back to it just this year, so spending that sort of money is something I no longer do as it's no longer a business for me but a home project studio. I used to have a nice commercial premises where with all the plethora of sounds I used to work with a lot of unknown artists wanting to make a fresh demo, that was pretty much my thing, but just not well enough to do it anymore.

My internet is wi-fi, in the music room the mac studio gets about 700 mbps download speed which is absolutely fine for anything I'd need it for, so no need to cable it up when I'd have to do physical destruction to the house to get an ethernet port in that room. Wi-Fi is fine and for my PS5 I actually do use an ethernet powerline adapter which gets me about 300 mbps but is very stable and has very low latency, so for gaming, although slower, it's preferable to wi-fi. But for music, nah, my mac can stay on wi-fi permanently.
So my mac studio ethernet port is completely free and I'll only need the one interface, so this all sounds like it should "just work" for me.

I only need the two monitor outs which are already on the carbon, and it seems there are 8 mic/line combo inputs, which I'll use one for vocals and the rest for synths as well as the focusrite adat expanders.
So it seems I'll be right and can finally have a completely integrated PT system and play my external hardware directly into pro tools without cpu overhead and at ultra low latency, as the UAD Apollo is not all that low with plugins. HDX is much lower.

Cheers