OK, so here's a serious question for Avid regarding "openness"...

[TieDyedDevil]

Since PT9's announcement, Avid has been touting their commitment to "openness".

For example:

"Openness is a design commitment, built into every Avid product from its inception." from http://www.avid.com/US/about-avid/corporate-profile

and

"Avid brings openness, collaboration and productivity to the show floor ..." from http://community.avid.com/blogs/buzz...er-presos.aspx .


The obvious question for those of us who frequent "All Things Guitar" is: "How will this message of openness apply - if at all - to the Eleven Rack?"


Here are just two examples of how "openness" could benefit the Eleven Rack user community:

1) Third-party developers could create standalone tools for patch management and editing if given documentation of the protocols used to probe and control the Eleven Rack over USB.

2) Third-party developers could better integrate MIDI controllers with the Eleven Rack if given documentation of the messages sent *from* the Eleven Rack.


I don't need to tell you that these two scenarios will fulfill frequently expressed needs. I doubt that many Eleven Rack users would grouse about having to use third-party software or hardware to get better and more convenient control over their Eleven Rack.


I'm personally not an advocate of opening up the Eleven Rack as a "platform" for third-party developers, as some have requested on Ideascale. As a professional software developer, I believe that path is fraught with peril.

But I have to wonder: Where's the harm in simply *documenting* existing communications protocols between the Eleven Rack and the outside world...? This would give the third-party developers a green light to add significant value to the Eleven Rack's ecosystem.

While Avid may worry that this concession would cannibalize ProTools sales, they must be aware that excluding third-party developers cannibalizes Eleven Rack sales by discouraging the customers who won't willingly pay for a bundled ProTools software package that they won't use.


I've worked for enough big companies to know that the wheels of progress can turn very slowly, indeed. I've also learned from experience that semantics can be twisted to bring new, unexpected meanings to words used in corporate communications. I'd really like to know, from Avid's perspective, whether "openness" is a guiding principle that's going to take a long time to unfold; or is it a convenient marketing buzzword with a redefined scope limited to a "not-exactly open" corporate mission?

[adamqlw]

I too would like to see an answer to this.

[sorcerer27]

+1

[zedhed]

Any announcement of openness is expressly designed to stop these types of questions being asked

[AvidEditor]

Openness regarding Avid is an interesting issue. Avid was an innovator and world leader in video and film editing. As the undisputed leader in the industry Avid developed the OMF file which unified and standardized digital media. I'd say this was proof of openness - but obviously Avid does what's best for Avid. Avid does not do what's best for you or me.

As an owner of a succession of Avid editing systems I owe a lot to the company. Avid has done great things.

On the other hand, I've sued Avid and arrived at fair settlement.

I don't hold any grudges, Avid has great tools. But products reach end of life. As we know, it's just business. I'm sitting in my office at home looking at an Avid Meridien system. I couldn't now sell the system on eBay for $300 and it had an MSRP of $19,999 when I bought it. It was worth every penny back then - the current moment of technology and the value as a tool for earning money determines the value of professional products. Is the Eleven Rack a professional product? That's the million dollar question.

TieDyedDevil, while I think you are correct that they're using "openness" as a marketing strategy, in the past Avid has set a precedent that they are a world leader and they do promote openness. But unfortunately with the Eleven Rack I don't see enough profit for Avid to spend the type of R&D we Eleven Rack owners would like to see. In order for the Eleven Rack to be fully supported by Avid I think it needs to be a tool in the professional workplace. I don't work in the music industry, I hope someone who does gives their opinion. I think if the Eleven Rack makes inroads into the professional recording studio we'd see advancement. But I don't see it. In the meantime I love the Eleven Rack, it's a fantastic tool.

[junkgear]

This is kind of a strange topic for me because although I would love to see the Eleven Rack thrive in the industry, I have to stand up for Avid as well.

For one, when the Eleven Rack came out, it was marketed as an extension of the Pro Tools system; a tool that would allow you to work in Pro Tools, then take those sounds on the road.

I think the big problem is our expectations are high due to the competition. We all got spoiled by other devices that aren't tied to a specific DAW and simply expected AVID to follow suite. Except, the other companies weren't DAW companies, and don't have any software to tie it into.

I'm sure everyone agrees that Digidesign/Avid did an incredible job on the 11R and the integration with PT is first rate. Would I like to see more updates and a stand alone editor? Sure. But I also can't blame Avid for sticking to their original plan; make a great interface for Pro Tools.

[richpjr]

Originally Posted by AvidEditor

But products reach end of life. As we know, it's just business.

The problem is that as of right now, the 11R is not at end of life. The package has just been upgraded from including PT8LE to PT9 (with the free upgrade to PT10). The hardware is identical, but now those of us who bought our 11R a year ago are expected to pony up $500 just to be able to continue running it on a current OS. I can only speak for myself, but I'd guess that a large portion of people wanting a stand alone editor want it so as not to have to pay the upgrade fee. If the priced the upgrade at something more reasonable (such as what their competitors are charging) I'd expect you wouldn't hear nearly as much complaining about it. Sure, a stand alone editor would be more convenient than launching ProTools to tweak things but I'd do it if the upgrade was $99 or even $199. But $500? No freaking way.

I get the vendor lock in strategy and if the price was reasonable, I'd allow myself to be locked into Avid. But now, they are alienating enough people that I am looking elsewhere and will likely be avoiding Avid products in the future. Not a win in any case for Avid. I guess a smaller number of people paying large upgrade fees is more appealing than a larger number paying smaller fees for them.

[JChance]

Originally Posted by AvidEditor

I don't work in the music industry, I hope someone who does gives their opinion. I think if the Eleven Rack makes inroads into the professional recording studio we'd see advancement. But I don't see it. In the meantime I love the Eleven Rack, it's a fantastic tool.

I'm late to the party, but I thought I'd chime in with a couple of thoughts.
Basically what I think I could add is the perspective of a former Eleven Rack owner...while also stating a few reasons why I would consider getting another one...
I'm certainly not a household name a la Dann Huff or Nathan Chapman, but I work in Nashville as a session guitar player & producer...so maybe I can throw in some "real world" takes on the unit, at least how I've observed it's implementation in the commercial field here in town.
I've seen Eleven Racks used by a number of my industry buds. When I had mine, I mainly used it at home for overdubbing extra layers but did take it to a few demo sessions instead of an amp with good results.

As a guitar player first and foremost, where Eleven (both hardware and software) really shines, in my opinion, is in both it's simplicity and authenticity. It's very easy to get commercial-quality sounds up and running in a hurry.
I'm a meat & potatoes kind of guy and don't do well with "too many options" in terms of layered effects, banks, etc. But I also know guys who are super-tweakers, and get superb results. Sometimes I wish I had their creative zest for thinking outside the box to get unique & "perfect" tones!

With Eleven, you can truly have it either way. I already had the plugin, and was mainly using the rack for the amps....so it ended up being a redundant piece of gear(even though some of the effects in the rack were outstanding!). That's why I ended up selling it. I totally take the Avid guys on their word when they say the amp sounds are exactly the same between the plugin and the rack, based on my own uses of both.

While I loved the simplicity of the 11R, there were a few small things that I thought it was missing for the more "production" minded. Unfortunately, I sold mine just a couple of months before the expansion pack came out... Poorly timed, as the pack may have given me more of what I was looking for.. I wish the plugin had the Matchless and Bogner in particular!

Still, I was really missing a few more options on cabs & mic placement. This is where 3rd party IR's could come *very* handy. Being able to use something like the Redwirez library would be the best of all worlds, I think. Depending on the player and instrument, being able to move mics around a little more can make a difference when dialing in sounds. In that area, the Eleven "on-axis/off-axis" option can be a little too "one size fits all."
The options that are there are very good, though! In fact, I just re-amped some parts today on a pop record I'm working... literally using presets in the Eleven RTAS. For the particular player/instrument I had on the session, it just worked. I doubt the mix engineer will have to EQ the guitar tracks at all. (For reference, it was an alt-pop Gretsch tone and the "AC Hi Boost Crunch" was the ticket. )

The other thing that would be nice, if/when they update the rack unit again, would be to ditch the AD/DA section from it's 003 cousin to the newer chips in the mBox line. This may be too esoteric for some, I dunno.

When I had my Eleven Rack, I was in the middle of heavily editing 3 album projects I was producing while simultaneously touring non-stop with a new artist. I needed something portable so I could work on the records on the bus and while in hotel rooms during the day, so I got a new mBox 3. *NIGHT and DAY* to my ears in D/A conversion quality between the Eleven Rack and mBox 3 for precision editing (like tightening rhythm tracks, VOCAL TUNING, etc.) *Collective GROAN*

So, in summary, along the lines of what many of you have said....My votes for the next revision would be

-More cab/mic/placement options and/or the ability to load IR's (along with a handful of whatever new amps & effects they decide on.)

-Updated conversion from the mBox series.

If those things happen, for me personally I'd immediately jump back in for the Eleven hardware. It's a really good product either way.

[Max Gutnik]

Thanks for the great feedback. A little background for those that don't know me - I am a guitarist by trade and was on the road for 11 years touring with a number of bands. I also taught guitar full-time while in school (if you're interested, I have some rough stuff on SoundCloud- but please don't be mean ).

I check out ideascale almost everyday and want many of the same things you do. And while we have to balance the work on Eleven with Pro Tools and our other I/O, I am committed to Eleven and Eleven rack development for the long haul.

What I am really interested in is making sure we're not missing anything that's not on ideascale, particularly as it pertains to opening things up in ways we may not have thought of or planned for, so please keep the comments coming!

[richpjr]

Originally Posted by Max Gutnik

Thanks for the great feedback. A little background for those that don't know me - I am a guitarist by trade and was on the road for 11 years touring with a number of bands. I also taught guitar full-time while in school (if you're interested, I have some rough stuff on SoundCloud- but please don't be mean ).

I check out ideascale almost everyday and want many of the same things you do. And while we have to balance the work on Eleven with Pro Tools and our other I/O, I am committed to Eleven and Eleven rack development for the long haul.

What I am really interested in is making sure we're not missing anything that's not on ideascale, particularly as it pertains to opening things up in ways we may not have thought of or planned for.

I am glad to see you posting here as the silence from Avid has been deafening. It's frustrating as a customer to feel like our concerns and issues are being ignored. It seems pointless to host something like ideascale, only to seemingly ignore the suggestions on it. Perhaps some aren't feasible or go against a company strategic direction, but that should be communicated to your customer base. Instead, we get no feedback and I've stopped even looking at it since it seems like a fruitless exercise. Frankly I'm real close to selling my 11R and moving on and that's a shame because I love an awful lot of things about it.