M2 Pro Mini vs M1 Studio Max

[mrguitarguy]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

My suspicion is at least some of the problem folks have been having is not specific to a model Mac, but more is related to Apple Silicon Macs. There are some tips/KB articles that may help, and one mistakes folks make when moving over to systems with Thunderbolt is to use a USB-C but not Thunderbolt cables for these connections, Thunderbolt 3/4 cables (3 or 4 makes no difference) look the same but don't have the Thunderbolt logo. it has the be Thunderbolt 3 or 4 cable, ideally a certified cable. And all longer Thunderbolt cables have active driver chips at each end... which adds to their cost. As much as I like large DigiLink systems, I suspect we are past the time where it makes sense to migrate off smaller HD Native systems onto third party USB or Thunderbolt CoreAudio interfaces. HD Native really has no benefit over good quality USB or Thunderbolt interfaces.

Your correct it is possible to get fast external drives with Thunderbolt 3, but as always what exact speeds you get depends on what exactly is connected/how. My own bias is to try to configure internal SSD storage to accommodate working sessions and samples and not to have to attach external storage, but then I mostly work on MacBook Pros and just don't want to *have* to connect external storage for stuff to work. And there is still folks that assume you have to use external storage for sessions or samples or who assume that adding external storage will be overall faster than using internal storage. With modern Macs the internal NVMe SSD is several times faster than the fastest Thunderbolt NVMe you can connect (largely limited by the 4xPCIe 3 speeds of Thunderbolt 3/4). Fast NVMe storage tends to make everything fast, boot times, Pro Tools startup times, VI load times (if they are not streaming VIs), backup times (assuming you are going to a fast backup device), etc. So the question is not just can Pro Tools work... it often can with just about any external or internal drive if you have disk cache enabled (set to a size to cache the session).

My current MBP has a 2TB SSD and space is tight but I'm able to fit everthing I need for Pro Tools in that, I know others would need much more space. I especially like the ability to move the MBP and work reliably, without needing external disks/cables etc. I also need lots of other storage at times for development or other work and so have also ended up with another 6TB of M.2 NVMe SSDs connected vi Thunderbolt and Sonnet expansion chassis.

And if you have a Mac Pro 5,1 and never installed a separate SATA III controller card, then yep now you are running at SATA II speeds. But while SATA II mostly limits bandwidth, just about any SATA SSDs you have should make a significant improvement in I/O latency. (Latency under some decent overall storage read/write load is what typically really matters). Any SATA controller/dock/enclosure you connect the Thunderbolt 3 will provide SATA III, and good commodity USB SSDs (without even going to Thunderbolt SSDs) now have moved beyond SATA to run NVMe over USB and can get into TB/s speeds with USB 3.2 Gen 2 or 2x2 (like the Samsung T7 or Western Digital/SanDisk Extreme PRO Portable SSD although that one is limited by Macs only supporting USB 3.1/3.2 Gen 2 and not 2x2). Or you go for Thunderbolt 3 NVMe SSDs... and they are ultimately limited by the 4 x PCIe 3 lanes of Thunderbolt 3/4. Be careful what SSD drive is what, performance varies widely, ... e.g. some vendors claim "Thunderbolt" but are only packing SATA SSDs in the enclosure. If you want to use a NVMe SSD, e.g. a M.2 drive in an external case you should/need to be using Thunderbolt 3/4 case not USB 3.2 (or any other USB protocol flavor).

Darryl,

Thanks for all this info! I really appreciate your time and help in the matter.

Our 5,1 systems use PCIe system drives which is great, but the audio drives have been SATA II and have performed without any issues in the past.

In your opinion is it reasonable to expect a an SSD pulled out of the SATA II drive bays to perform the at same or better when recording to it if it is connected via the Mini's USB 3/4 ports, or is there a latency issue with USB that SATA II does not have?

Would I be safe to assume that something like a Samsung Evo 860 SATA III drive pulled from our old system would be more than enough for recording at least 24 tracks of audio at a time in a USB 3.1/3.2 enclosure? (Similar to how USB can carry enough bandwidth for recording many tracks on even USB 2.0.) Please let me know if I am being naive here. I have a lot of these types drives on hand any it would be great to be able to reuse them in USB 3 cases if possible as their performance has always been adequate. Otherwise I am fine with going to NVME M.2 drives if required. Stability when recording live musicians at a low buffer is my main concern. I suspect mixing will most likely be fine.


I think your assessment of HD Native is correct. I am considering moving to USB/Thuderbolt or something else in the future. Brands like RME seem to be doing amazing things with low latency options.

Thank you again for your help and insights!

[mrguitarguy]

Originally Posted by Ben Jenssen

I say use your money on external storage. With Thunderbolt it can deliver speeds of 2.5-3GB/s r/w, and that's plenty fast. Internal storage prices are appx double. I actually manage to have system, apps and everything essential on a 256GB internal. Not saying it's ideal, but it's economical. Also, my 256 internal is half the speed of the M1 mini I had before, but I don't notice it. Boot times and launch times, everything is faster, no matter the slower internal.

Ben,

Thanks for responding.

What kind of drives and enclosures are you recording to and mixing from currently? What kind of track counts are you recording at one time? What sample rate are you working at typically? I'm jus trying to get some general ideas of what to expect. Thanks!

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by mrguitarguy

Darryl,

Thanks for all this info! I really appreciate your time and help in the matter.

Our 5,1 systems use PCIe system drives which is great, but the audio drives have been SATA II and have performed without any issues in the past.

In your opinion is it reasonable to expect a an SSD pulled out of the SATA II drive bays to perform the at same or better when recording to it if it is connected via the Mini's USB 3/4 ports, or is there a latency issue with USB that SATA II does not have?

It's very reasonable to expect them to perform roughly the same. Bearing in mind that nobody can guarantee the stability/performance of a Pro Tools system without testing the exact config. All it takes is just one bad plugin or other problem to make the system unstable, and potentially more sensitive to a slower disk. But if you really want to reuse the drives I'd go into what you are doing with the assumption it will work OK but test and see.

BTW M1 Macs did have a performance problem with USB 3.1/3.2 mostly Gen 2 performance (https://eclecticlight.co/2022/04/18/...-usb-3-1-gen-2) and none support USB 3.2 2x2 at all. A slight impact on USB SATA drives, and there were work arounds... but maybe another good reason to recommend Thunderbolt/NVmMe for those users if they want fast disk.

Even with Apple past blundering with USB, all these systems tend to be impressive, but folks still run into issues... as always typically software/plugin.

Would I be safe to assume that something like a Samsung Evo 860 SATA III drive pulled from our old system would be more than enough for recording at least 24 tracks of audio at a time in a USB 3.1/3.2 enclosure? (Similar to how USB can carry enough bandwidth for recording many tracks on even USB 2.0.) Please let me know if I am being naive here. I have a lot of these types drives on hand any it would be great to be able to reuse them in USB 3 cases if possible as their performance has always been adequate. Otherwise I am fine with going to NVME M.2 drives if required. Stability when recording live musicians at a low buffer is my main concern. I suspect mixing will most likely be fine.

But given low NVMe drive prices and high performance do you really want to do this? By the time you buy enclosures and spend time/money futzing around?

How old are those SATA drives? One thing you can do is look at wear and other stats on the drives (look at that with a SMART utility like iStats... it should show that SMART info for a SATA direct connect drive and NVMe direct connect drives). Just in case somebody has really been abusing them or they have some other problem... but that sounds unlikely. Also check all your old SSD firmware is up to date and upgrade if needed (after making sure they are all backed up) before installing on the new Mac. You should be running APFS filesystems on the new Mac if you are not already (unless you need legacy HFS+ compatibility on those external drives). APFS is just better all around.

If you are deploying multiple new Macs... I'd buy your first/test system and try it out live tracking and mixing and make sure there are no issues. Then I'd buy the additional Macs... maybe preorder but leave enough time to return, but I'd definitely test stuff out. I'm just a bit paranoid about any multi-systems deployments.

I think your assessment of HD Native is correct. I am considering moving to USB/Thuderbolt or something else in the future. Brands like RME seem to be doing amazing things with low latency options.

Big RME fan here, I have a Fireface UFX+, MADIface, DIGIface, and multiple other RME boxes. And it's not just latency, it's fantastic driver and other quality, and technical support, and Totalmix can be handy.

[Ben Jenssen]

Originally Posted by mrguitarguy

Ben,

Thanks for responding.

What kind of drives and enclosures are you recording to and mixing from currently? What kind of track counts are you recording at one time? What sample rate are you working at typically? I'm jus trying to get some general ideas of what to expect. Thanks!

My main drive is in a OWC Envoy Express enclosure, and it's a 2TB Kingston SNVS2000G M.2 NVMe. It has r/w speed of roughly 1300MB/s. I also have a 2TB USB for backup and simpler tasks (~300 MB/s).

It doesn't do much heavy lifting. I don't do high sample rates, big video, giant sessions - and I don't create hundreds of tracks just to see if I can - I'm sure I'm far, far away from pushing it anywhere near its limits. So I can't really impress you with numbers. Sorry.

[mrguitarguy]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

It's very reasonable to expect them to perform roughly the same. Bearing in mind that nobody can guarantee the stability/performance of a Pro Tools system without testing the exact config. All it takes is just one bad plugin or other problem to make the system unstable, and potentially more sensitive to a slower disk. But if you really want to reuse the drives I'd go into what you are doing with the assumption it will work OK but test and see.

BTW M1 Macs did have a performance problem with USB 3.1/3.2 mostly Gen 2 performance (https://eclecticlight.co/2022/04/18/...-usb-3-1-gen-2) and none support USB 3.2 2x2 at all. A slight impact on USB SATA drives, and there were work arounds... but maybe another good reason to recommend Thunderbolt/NVmMe for those users if they want fast disk.

Even with Apple past blundering with USB, all these systems tend to be impressive, but folks still run into issues... as always typically software/plugin.

I didn't know about the M! USB issues. Hopefully they are a bit better on the M2. Perhaps Apple will have/has had a firmware update to resolve the issue.

But given low NVMe drive prices and high performance do you really want to do this? By the time you buy enclosures and spend time/money futzing around?

I really don't have a problem doing that it that's what it takes. I was just hoping that if the old drives worked, it meant theoretically anything that fast or better would be more than enough to suit my needs. It sounds like we should be fine if testing goes well.

How old are those SATA drives? One thing you can do is look at wear and other stats on the drives (look at that with a SMART utility like iStats... it should show that SMART info for a SATA direct connect drive and NVMe direct connect drives). Just in case somebody has really been abusing them or they have some other problem... but that sounds unlikely. Also check all your old SSD firmware is up to date and upgrade if needed (after making sure they are all backed up) before installing on the new Mac. You should be running APFS filesystems on the new Mac if you are not already (unless you need legacy HFS+ compatibility on those external drives). APFS is just better all around.

They aren't that old and some have seen little usage. We replace them pretty regularly and I have some that are just backups. I'll do a check on them. That's great advice.

If you are deploying multiple new Macs... I'd buy your first/test system and try it out live tracking and mixing and make sure there are no issues. Then I'd buy the additional Macs... maybe preorder but leave enough time to return, but I'd definitely test stuff out. I'm just a bit paranoid about any multi-systems deployments.

Good call. This is my plan. Hopefully this new Mac Mini will work perfectly for our needs. If not, it either goes back or ends up in a smaller mixing/mastering/editing room where it would not see large live tracking sessions.

Big RME fan here, I have a Fireface UFX+, MADIface, DIGIface, and multiple other RME boxes. And it's not just latency, it's fantastic driver and other quality, and technical support, and Totalmix can be handy.

I recently picked up the new UCX II for a small room with overdubs and I have to say, it's really impressive. I haven't had a single issue with it and the clocking and converters seem to be very, very good. Total Mix has been a bit of a learning curve since it wasn't quite as intuitive as I'd hoped, but I'm used to just using PT Ultimate with large format consoles and not having software in between so anything like that would have been an adjustment regardless of the manufacturer. I went with RME based on their reputation and reviews. I've only had it a week, but so far I haven't had a single issue no matter what I do or how I route things.


Again, I just want to say how much I genuinely appreciate your help and knowledge on this matter. I'm usually just busy working with clients all day and it's hard to stay up on all the changes to the various computer technologies. It certainly can feel overwhelming and I am far from a power user when it comes to computers. Hopefully this will be a dependable system and this thread will help someone else out who's considering these options as well.

[mrguitarguy]

Originally Posted by Ben Jenssen

My main drive is in a OWC Envoy Express enclosure, and it's a 2TB Kingston SNVS2000G M.2 NVMe. It has r/w speed of roughly 1300MB/s. I also have a 2TB USB for backup and simpler tasks (~300 MB/s).

It doesn't do much heavy lifting. I don't do high sample rates, big video, giant sessions - and I don't create hundreds of tracks just to see if I can - I'm sure I'm far, far away from pushing it anywhere near its limits. So I can't really impress you with numbers. Sorry.

Ben, no problem and thanks for responding. I was just looking for some real world experience/data. If you happened to be doing similar type of work, it might be a good comparison for what to expect. I'm glad you system is working well for you and I'm hoping for the same!

[smurfyou]

Originally Posted by mrguitarguy

Would I be safe to assume that something like a Samsung Evo 860 SATA III drive pulled from our old system would be more than enough for recording at least 24 tracks of audio at a time in a USB 3.1/3.2 enclosure? (Similar to how USB can carry enough bandwidth for recording many tracks on even USB 2.0.) Please let me know if I am being naive here. I have a lot of these types drives on hand any it would be great to be able to reuse them in USB 3 cases if possible as their performance has always been adequate. Otherwise I am fine with going to NVME M.2 drives if required. Stability when recording live musicians at a low buffer is my main concern. I suspect mixing will most likely be fine.

Hi, I will start by saying I'm not on an M1/M2 Mac yet.

I currently have the last Intel Mac mini. But I did exactly as you said. I took my Samsung Evo work drives out of my Mac Pro 5.1 and put them into a USB 3.1gen2 enclosure, plugged it in and got to work. I could record a pile of tracks no problem. I would recommend an NVME setup for the long run but you can definitely reuse your older SSD's.

[mrguitarguy]

Originally Posted by smurfyou

Hi, I will start by saying I'm not on an M1/M2 Mac yet.

I currently have the last Intel Mac mini. But I did exactly as you said. I took my Samsung Evo work drives out of my Mac Pro 5.1 and put them into a USB 3.1gen2 enclosure, plugged it in and got to work. I could record a pile of tracks no problem. I would recommend an NVME setup for the long run but you can definitely reuse your older SSD's.

Great! Thanks for the info!

[ibicfyou]

Protools wont use the efficiency cores, just the performance cores. So M2 Pro and M1 Max are essencially the same in terms of number of cores used by PT, both are 8.

[mike661]

I'm just here to report that I own both Mac Studio M1 Max and Mac Mini M2 Pro 12 core.

This past week I just replaced 4x Mac Pro 7,1 (2019) 12 and 16 core machines with the Mac Mini M2 Pro 12c, 1TB, 32GB. The Sonnet DuoModo xMac mini/Echo III (rack and desktop versions). I'm running both HDX and HD Native PCIe options with UAD-2 Octo PCIe and Sonnet 10G ethernet cards.

They are what I've observed slightly faster than the M1 Max in their responsiveness and plugin count/cpu performance. Pro Tools only address the 8 performance cores.

These machines have been 100% solid. We've extensively run PT in both Rosetta mode and Apple Silicon mode, depending on the session requirements. I can't say there's a noticeable difference in either mode.

The Mac Pros we replaced were MUCH more capable as far as CPU/plugin power. I will miss them, but I wanted out as the future of Intel supported Mac is clearly going to get worse as time marches forward.