Mac Studio Connectivity

[jphaudio]

Greetings, I am getting ready to order the Studio Max or the Studio Ultra. May concern, besides the actual cost do the computer, are the Thunderbolt 4 ports and my Thunderbolt 2 ports on my Apollo 8, and two Satellites. I am also using USB C for external SSD drive. I see some Thunderbolt 4 docking stations for 200-400 price range. I posted a UA support ticket to ask the recommended cable setup to get the most bandwidth from the new Mac Studio with UA hardware. I searched uaudio.com for "Thunderbolt 4" and got all the info on Thunderbolt3, 1, and 1.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Also, I only run 70-100 tracks in Pro Tools so I am not sure if going with the 10 core Max version with 64 gigs of ram is more than I need, or should I bite the bullet and get the Ultra with 20 cores?

[Darryl Ramm]

For everything you likely care about Thunderbolt 4 is Thunderbolt 3. Different spec details on display support, and power delivery, etc. For data stuff on Mac it's really not changed. Thunderbolt 4 was especially aimed at cleaning up mess in Windows PC land where vendors were doing half assed implementations, they now have to adhere to a stricter set of specs, that largely does no affect Apple.

Most folks would just use a Apple Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt adapter to an interface like yours. The same Apple dongle thingy that has been around for years.

I can't imagine a problem with the UAD Satellites but you should check that, I imagine UAD has great doc on that already and/or stuff on their forums. Again Thunderbolt 4 is Thunderbolt 3 for data related stuff like an audio interface or a Satellite.

USB-C is a physical connector type, that USB 1,2,3 etc. and Thunderbolt also shares, so your external drive is what USB 3.x? Thunderbolt? Either way it will work plugged into the Studio ports... if it's Thunderbolt it needs to be in a Thunderbolt capable port (the Studio Max has front USB-C ports without Thunderbolt support, all ports on the Ultra are Thunderbolt capable). If you are running sessions or samples on that external drive hopefully its' a fast SSD drive, preferably NVMe (but that would typically mean Thunderbolt not USB 3.x etc.). And if not then the best place to put sessions and samples is on those internal superfast NVMe drives. As always my advice is max out the internal NVMe storage as much as you can afford and ideally run sessions and samples on the internal drive(s).

A dock might be handy, OWC makes a nice Thunderbolt 4 docks... the only real advantage there is Thunderbolt 4 unlike 3 allows hubs/fan out of the Thunderbolt, so you can have Thunderbolt 4 into the dock on USB-C and two Thunderbolt 4 out on USB-C... that' can be handy if you have things like Thunderbolt drives etc. that have single Thunderbolt ports that stop expansion on a cable chain. But you have so many ports on these systems, that may not be needed.

Bandwidth/performance and cable arrangements here likely make little difference Thunderbolt 2 Satellites can only consume a small fraction for a Thunderbolt 3 or 4 link. Just about stick 'em anywhere. You have to be careful you are using USB-C Thunderbolt 3 or 4 cables not any old USB-C cable. Ideally look for a Thunderbolt 4 qualified officially branded cable, it will do everything. You'll see they are more expensive (for good reason with active driver chips inside the cable at each end for longest thunderbolt 3 cables). Maybe don't share stuff on the link to an external Thunderbolt display. And all thunderbolt ports on the Studio models are on separate Thunderbolt busses. Of course if you want maximum performance (for some definition of performance) you would not be using slow UAD external DSP processing on such beefy computers

I would be focusing on software setup and compatibility. Make sure all your plugins and apps are compatible with the latest macOS, that you have installers ready to go etc. And that you can test stuff quickly within the Mac's return period.

Nobody here likely can give you any very meaningful advice about what you should buy, we have no idea of your budget or how heavy those sessions really are or what else you will do with the computer. But to me processing power might not be the leading thing to decide this, memory might be. If I was after a Studio I'd want it to last multiple years and I'd be looking at the Ultra with 128GB of memory. It's not how much memory I need now, it's also what will I likely need in a few years. And again I'd be trying to max out internal NVMe storage at least to fit stuff now on those drives (I'm hoping third parties will offer replacement/expansion storage cards in future)... and all those prices Apple up pretty fast.

And new Mac Pro are expected to be announced at WWDC, and rumors of M2 chips coming in new laptops amd Mac Minis... so things maybe be a changing fast.

[jphaudio]

Wow, that is a great post. Thank you! May go with the Utlra @ 64 gigs of ram, and upgrade the SSD.


True on the UAD Apollo. Once I re-coop the computer cost, I may upgrade to the Apollo8x or go with Avid interface. Either way, the will probably be the slower than the Mac anyway.


I wish I could wait until M2 chips but I am stuck on catlina (Macbook Pro 2103 maxed out) and need to upgrade. My CPU is getting taxed after about 40 tracks, especially with some of the new AI plugins like New Fangled Audio (Limiter is awesome)



Thanks again, this helps greatly!

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

For everything you likely care about Thunderbolt 4 is Thunderbolt 3. Different spec details on display support, and power delivery, etc. For data stuff on Mac it's really not changed. Thunderbolt 4 was especially aimed at cleaning up mess in Windows PC land where vendors were doing half assed implementations, they now have to adhere to a stricter set of specs, that largely does no affect Apple.

Most folks would just use a Apple Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt adapter to an interface like yours. The same Apple dongle thingy that has been around for years.

I can't imagine a problem with the UAD Satellites but you should check that, I imagine UAD has great doc on that already and/or stuff on their forums. Again Thunderbolt 4 is Thunderbolt 3 for data related stuff like an audio interface or a Satellite.

USB-C is a physical connector type, that USB 1,2,3 etc. and Thunderbolt also shares, so your external drive is what USB 3.x? Thunderbolt? Either way it will work plugged into the Studio ports... if it's Thunderbolt it needs to be in a Thunderbolt capable port (the Studio Max has front USB-C ports without Thunderbolt support, all ports on the Ultra are Thunderbolt capable). If you are running sessions or samples on that external drive hopefully its' a fast SSD drive, preferably NVMe (but that would typically mean Thunderbolt not USB 3.x etc.). And if not then the best place to put sessions and samples is on those internal superfast NVMe drives. As always my advice is max out the internal NVMe storage as much as you can afford and ideally run sessions and samples on the internal drive(s).

A dock might be handy, OWC makes a nice Thunderbolt 4 docks... the only real advantage there is Thunderbolt 4 unlike 3 allows hubs/fan out of the Thunderbolt, so you can have Thunderbolt 4 into the dock on USB-C and two Thunderbolt 4 out on USB-C... that' can be handy if you have things like Thunderbolt drives etc. that have single Thunderbolt ports that stop expansion on a cable chain. But you have so many ports on these systems, that may not be needed.

Bandwidth/performance and cable arrangements here likely make little difference Thunderbolt 2 Satellites can only consume a small fraction for a Thunderbolt 3 or 4 link. Just about stick 'em anywhere. You have to be careful you are using USB-C Thunderbolt 3 or 4 cables not any old USB-C cable. Ideally look for a Thunderbolt 4 qualified officially branded cable, it will do everything. You'll see they are more expensive (for good reason with active driver chips inside the cable at each end for longest thunderbolt 3 cables). Maybe don't share stuff on the link to an external Thunderbolt display. And all thunderbolt ports on the Studio models are on separate Thunderbolt busses. Of course if you want maximum performance (for some definition of performance) you would not be using slow UAD external DSP processing on such beefy computers

I would be focusing on software setup and compatibility. Make sure all your plugins and apps are compatible with the latest macOS, that you have installers ready to go etc. And that you can test stuff quickly within the Mac's return period.

Nobody here likely can give you any very meaningful advice about what you should buy, we have no idea of your budget or how heavy those sessions really are or what else you will do with the computer. But to me processing power might not be the leading thing to decide this, memory might be. If I was after a Studio I'd want it to last multiple years and I'd be looking at the Ultra with 128GB of memory. It's not how much memory I need now, it's also what will I likely need in a few years. And again I'd be trying to max out internal NVMe storage at least to fit stuff now on those drives (I'm hoping third parties will offer replacement/expansion storage cards in future)... and all those prices Apple up pretty fast.

And new Mac Pro are expected to be announced at WWDC, and rumors of M2 chips coming in new laptops amd Mac Minis... so things maybe be a changing fast.

[jphaudio]

Just to add, I am old school in that I was taught to never record your audio on the same hard drive as your OS. I guess now the Mac's are so fast, it is not really a factor.

My external 4T SSD is awesome, although I agree with what you said. The external SSD won't be as fast as the internal Mac SSD.


Thank you.

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by jphaudio

Just to add, I am old school in that I was taught to never record your audio on the same hard drive as your OS. I guess now the Mac's are so fast, it is not really a factor.

My external 4T SSD is awesome, although I agree with what you said. The external SSD won't be as fast as the internal Mac SSD.

What exact drive? SSD performance varies by factors. But yes even slow SSDs are so much better than old spinny things. Modern NVMe Thunderbolt 3 external drive will have performance close to the internal drives. But there are not a lot of great packaging/chassis options for external M.2 drives which bugs me, and I would prefer not using external drives and easy to dislodge cables etc. (especially with laptops) (but I do run M.2 NVMe drives in an external Sonnet PCIe expansion chassis) but I only run sessions and samples on the internal drive.

With Apple an early user of NVMe SSD drives the need for dedicated recording drives has not been true for many years now. Even without disk cache. Apple did a great job pushing fast SSD adoption. The main point here is not that you should change using a SSD external drive that is great for your needs, its that folks don't' *have* to use an external drive, and that trips up others at times.

Make sure you read up on the implication of T2 chips (used in the Studio and other Macs more recent than your MBP) and issues that causes with things like clone backups of your boot volumes.

[jphaudio]

Thank you, this is very helpful. I have three Glyph external drives, the main one, an SSD Atom which has been very fast and efficient for me so far. (I upgraded my 2013 internal to SSD also which has given it a little more life span.)


With this new information, I think I will run with the Studio Max version, 64 gig ram and as much internal SSD as I can afford. I can later expand via external Sonnet.


For what I do, this should be plenty. If I am lucky to expand my work base, I can fund the next years latest/greatest M2/M3 computer with the new revenue.



Thank you!

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

What exact drive? SSD performance varies by factors. But yes even slow SSDs are so much better than old spinny things. Modern NVMe Thunderbolt 3 external drive will have performance close to the internal drives. But there are not a lot of great packaging/chassis options for external M.2 drives which bugs me, and I would prefer not using external drives and easy to dislodge cables etc. (especially with laptops) (but I do run M.2 NVMe drives in an external Sonnet PCIe expansion chassis) but I only run sessions and samples on the internal drive.

With Apple an early user of NVMe SSD drives the need for dedicated recording drives has not been true for many years now. Even without disk cache. Apple did a great job pushing fast SSD adoption. The main point here is not that you should change using a SSD external drive that is great for your needs, its that folks don't' *have* to use an external drive, and that trips up others at times.

Make sure you read up on the implication of T2 chips (used in the Studio and other Macs more recent than your MBP) and issues that causes with things like clone backups of your boot volumes.

[Darryl Ramm]

Neat. Just FYI, the Glyph Atom are SSD SATA III drives internally which is what caps their speed at ~500 MB/sec. They use USB 3.1 Gen 2 aka 10 Mbit/sec on the USB-C connector. Modern external NVMe SSD use Thunderbolt 3 on the USB-C connector aka 20 Mbit/sec but their internal PCIe/NVMe interface provides performance up to several times faster than SATA III. And the internal SSD will even faster. But again even SATA SSD are super fast compared to old HDD, but I'd be cautious about combining samples and heavy sessions on a SATA SSD drive).

[jphaudio]

Awesome, will save this thread for when I get the computer. Thank you!

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

Neat. Just FYI, the Glyph Atom are SSD SATA III drives internally which is what caps their speed at ~500 MB/sec. They use USB 3.1 Gen 2 aka 10 Mbit/sec on the USB-C connector. Modern external NVMe SSD use Thunderbolt 3 on the USB-C connector aka 20 Mbit/sec but their internal PCIe/NVMe interface provides performance up to several times faster than SATA III. And the internal SSD will even faster. But again even SATA SSD are super fast compared to old HDD, but I'd be cautious about combining samples and heavy sessions on a SATA SSD drive).

[Phil O'Keefe]

I have a UA Octo Satellite connected to my Mac Studio and it is working just fine.

[jphaudio]

That is great news. With your current setup are you able to run plenty of track on the Max with 32 gigs of ram? That was my concern, I would need to safely run 70-80 tracks without getting close to max cpu if possible.



Thanks!

Originally Posted by Phil O'Keefe

I have a UA Octo Satellite connected to my Mac Studio and it is working just fine.