11R For Live Sound?

[Alien Frequency]

Hey everyone. I don't have a tech issue, I'm just seeking info. I'm thinking of buying an 11R for use in the studio and live.

My band is metalcore mostly (sort of Demon Hunter-esque). So, I went to a metal guitarist's forum asking about the 11R. 90% of everyone there just kept saying "Get a 5150". Well, I'm sure it's a dandy, but I'm a fairly small guy and the thought of lugging around a 150 pound amp doesn't suit me. However, I do want to sound as pro live as I do in the studio. I really like the idea of taking your studio sound with you.

So, I was thinking of the 11R with a powered cab with Celestial speaker(s). Has anyone ever used the 11R live, and were you happy with the results? Maybe you have a video of the live performance??? Greatly appreciated!

-Ken

[Darryl Ramm]

A powered guitar cab or full range monitor? You want to lug around a conventional guitar speaker cab? That weighs what? If not a guitar cab the why care what brand of speakers it has?

Are you just needing to drive a single cab live on stage or do you also need to feed FOH? The Eleven Rack is a great box, but it has a limitation for live use where the cab modeling (which you want for FOH but likely not your on stage cab) is only a global setting, you cannot have it on for FOH and off for the cab. If you are feeding FOH then you might want to consider full range monitors on stage driven back from FOH or from the amp1/2 outputs on the Eleven Rack or if you are just driving the cab on stage for everything then just be aware you will run into this when playing larger venues.... And what cab and power amp you do drive on stage with the a eleven Rack is likely to significantly affect the tone...

I would tend to just go get an Eleven Rack if you are interested and see if you can dial in a tone you like at all. Without that it is all academic. You can pick up a used box cheap on EBay or at $600 or so the street prices are pretty good. The cab/full range monitor is likely to cost you more.... even if just a powered stage monitor. Or do you already own that? The Fractal Axe-FX II is a much more capable box for live use, and is priced appropriately.

[YYR123]

I agree with Daryl get a unit an play with it, great addition to anyone's guitar collection for sure.

....and I use the unit thru an amp all the time. Cab emulator smab emulator

.....and I just recently used mine in front of my JVM210H and carvin cab with celestion's (it's an old speaker cab)

It still sounded good, all the benefits of the Orange box and the power of the Marshall.

But I'm sure you will have purists telling you that you can't do that....

Anyway go get a box, if for noting else to use as a practice head in a apartment setting, it's a fun box especially for the price. A new unit off eBay can be had w/o pro tools for $325-$350


Benoni has a few posts with videos and his genre is metal/ish kind of music (hell I don't even know what the genre is called anymore)

For sound samples.

And the site elevenrackpresets has a great site that has as you could guess tons of free presets

[Alien Frequency]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

A powered guitar cab or full range monitor? You want to lug around a conventional guitar speaker cab? That weighs what? If not a guitar cab the why care what brand of speakers it has?

I don't completely understand your question. I'm really a noob when it comes to live performance, with maybe fewer than 10 gigs under my belt. I'm more of a studio guy. The Celestion powered cab was just an example. The one I'm looking at weighs 32 pounds (vs 150ish for a 5150)

But, yeah, I'd like the powered amp as a stage monitor and maybe mic it + go direct w/ the 11R. I know the 2 signals would sound different.

The Axe FX is overpriced IMO, sure it sounds awesome, but so does The Eleven Rack

YYR123, that helps. I already know I like the tones in the unit for my style of music. I've been researching it for several days now. It sounds amazing for metal.

Thanks, both of you.

[JacksonRR1]

I definitely don't want to discourage you from getting an Eleven Rack, because it's a great piece of equipment for the price. That said, live is not where the unit excels IMO. I love my Eleven Rack for practicing through headphones or through my powered studio monitors. Mine also sees a lot of use for tracking and then re-amping through my real amps.

For live use, I greatly prefer using my 6505+ or my Mesa Mark V. I have tried out the Eleven Rack at a few of my band practices, and found that it can sound harsh at higher volumes. I tried it using powered PA speakers with cab sims, and also tried it running through my 6505+'s power amp into a regular cab with cab sims disabled. I preferred the sound running through the 6505+'s power amp into the real cab, but there was a harshness in the high end that I didn't like.

If the weight is scaring you off of going the real amp route, consider an EVH 5153 50W head with a 2x12 cab. The head weighs 35 lbs, and a 2x12 will be around 50 lbs or so. Very manageable for hauling around.

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by Alien Frequency

I don't completely understand your question. I'm really a noob when it comes to live performance, with maybe fewer than 10 gigs under my belt. I'm more of a studio guy. The Celestion powered cab was just an example. The one I'm looking at weighs 32 pounds (vs 150ish for a 5150)

Cabinets are either broadly guitar cabs (usually big and heavy and designed to distort in nice ways) or full range speaker cabinets (maybe lighter, but not always, and designed to ideally not distort, just accurately reproduce sound in PA/sound reinforcement/monitoring applications).

By calling out a "Celestion" powered cab, I assume you are talking about a guitar cab, which would normally be a heavy large cab, and if a guitar cab not a full range speaker it is more likely normally about the same size as the cab you would have used on the Guitar Amp the Eleven Rack is replacing. And a Peavy 5150 head weights 55lb, A 5150 Cab weighs around 100 lb, so that is where I assume your 150lb total comes from. A 32 lb full range monitor may be a bit light on for sound if you are aiming at high sound levels, and depending on what exact speaker may be much more directional/beaming that a 4x 12 cab... although both choices may/are likely to have issues with that (until you fill in with several full range monitors). If OTOH you are using a guitar cab then it will likely also be around 100 lb if in the 4x12 class and also wlll require a large power amp (either valve or solid state).

If you are trying to push loud volumes (I'm not aware of any quiet metal bands...) from a single on-stage cabinet hopefully it's for smaller venues only. You will need to deal with cabinet positioning, beaming issues (deafening the center of the second row, low volume in back...), loudness on-stage for you and other performers etc. Hopefully as you find a lot more work you can investigate driving stage or in-ear monitors to give good motioning, protect your hearing and drive audience sound though a FOH/full range system. If there are venues you play or want to play that has a knowledgeable sound guy it may be useful to talk to them about how things work, what they expect or recommend.

Part of the hype of what brand/model/spec speaker is in a guitar amp cabinet is all about how they distort. And a guitar cabinet also contribute resonance and other effects to the sound. And be careful whatever amp you are looking at can drive the levels you want, a 100W solid state PA amp is very different than a 100W guitar amp.

So an important question is what type of cabinet you are trying to drive, if a real guitar cab driven at decent level you likely want to start with Cabinet effects in the Eleven Rack turned off. If a full range/PA/monitor speaker you usually want to start with cabinet effects in the Eleven Rack turned on. Again it is a weakness in the Eleven Rack that while you can concurrently say drive FOH with the main outputs and a guitar power amp and cab on stage with amp1/amp2 outputs you cannot drive one with cabinet effects and the other without.

As you play larger gigs you likely will run into FOH (Front Of House) sound systems where you will be expected to provide a mic input from a guitar cabinet (or from the Eleven Rack) and that will then drive the actual sound the audience hears thought the venue FOH sound system.

But again, given the Eleven Rack is likely the cheaper part of any solution here I'd just go get one and start playing and if it rocks your boat, then fill in power amps and other things you need. If you can't even get started with liking the Eleven Rack then dump it. And as for comments about high-end etc. above, certainly the Eleven Rack won't always be everybody's cup of tea... but you should be careful of falling into a trap of always just dimming the amp gain, take it a bit easy, and you *have* to be willing to play with EQ in the rig (there is a nice parametric EQ module built in).... beyond that I'll bow out as I'm a classic rock low/mid-gain tube amp fan.

[DonaldR]

My last gigs were done exclusively with my 11R, direct to FOH with cab sims on. My friend guitar player came in and said it was simply one of the best sound he heard live (he owned Mesa Triaxis+ 90/90 amp + mesa cab). I play blues, classic rock and 80' hard rock.

My guitar in one hand and a 4u rack case in the other hand with 11R, midi floorpedal/expression, 25' xlr cable and 25' power cable. Weights less than 20lbs and takes 5 minutes to setup. Funny now to watch the time and effort for other musicians to setup and even more, the time for them to pack back after the gig :)

Live you can:
1- go direct FOH (rig output) and use provided monitors (what I do)
2- go direct FOH (rig output) and use your own FRFR speaker for consistency
3- go direct FOH (amp output) and use power amp+cab+effect (only for you)
4- (rig output no cab) and use poweramp+cab and mike it as you would with regular setup

Simply understand that what you hear from 11R is what the audience hears and that's where it make sense. Whatever regular amp setup you choose will sound as good as the soundman miking your amp. So it might sound fizzy or boomy and you'll never know from the stage. With the 11R I have consistent sound from one gig to another.

According to Fractal user group, amp models on 11R are as good as the one in AxeFX. Where AxeFx is better is with effects, cab sims (just recently) and parameters/output options.

I think the key for you is to rent a 12" frfr and a sub for 2-3 weeks and take the time to dial in your patches at live sound level. 11R is very easy to program from the front panel almost like a real amp and pedals contrary to other multi-effects/modelers.

I suggest you buy Singtall mega-pack as they are a good starting point.

[wpawley]

I am a Bass player but I use my 11R sometimes for small venues instead of toting a 410 cab and head. I usually don't worry about a "stage" amp for monitoring because our PA has plenty of AUX outputs for monitors and I have a powered monitor just for that purpose. It works great. Our lead player's amp crapped out on him one night and instead of trying to run home and get another, just plugged me direct to the PA and let him use my 11R. He is saving up his money for one now. While I still think the 11R excels as a recording interface, it is just as happy being used live. You get it dialed in like you want and saved, it is there at your fingertips (or feet with a foot controller like the GCP) and in the audiences face.

[tpp]

I have been using the 11 rack for 2-3 months live now and I have to say I do not like it. There are a number of things the 11 rack does well, being used as a live rig is not one of them.

Here are some of the negative things about using the 11 rack live:

1. 60 millisecond pause between patch changes
2. Delay pitch shifting between patches
3. No chorus/delay/reverb spillover from patch to patch
4. No chorus in mono output (Left XLR only)
5. Single function controls

To go more in-depth on the above list:

1. 60 millisecond pause between patch changes:

This is pretty self explainitory. There is no way around it. If you change from one patch to another you will hear a slight pause in your signal. It sucks live, but isn't the end of the world. It is one of the many small issues that shows the 11 rack is not made for live sound.

2. Delay pitch shifting between patches:

This one was one of the biggest disappointments I had with the 11 rack live. Say patch 1 has a BPM of 120 and patch 2 has a BPM of 150. If patch 2 has a delay enabled you will hear the sound pitch up from low to high. It sounds [bleep][bleep][bleep][bleep]ing terrible and it goes through your entire signal chain so it's effected as well. I can't imagine how this was ever tested as a live rig and not flagged as a defect.

3. No chorus/delay/reverb spillover from patch to patch:

You just spent 32 bars building up this sweet layered sound that has lots of delay tails and thick reverb? Change a patch to something else and it's cut off immediately. It sounds very abrupt (which could be desired from time to time), but it's not always optimal.

4. No chorus in mono output (Left XLR only):

If you want to use the chorus effect it needs to be stereo...unless this is a setting I have locally that's causing it to be ignored in mono, when I run mono (left only) XLR out of the 11 rack I don't hear any tone difference when the reverb is toggled on or off.

5. Single function controls:

This one is way more of a nice to have than reason not to purchase, but I'm using a Mission Engineering wah with the button that switches the wah on and off. It would be nice if this button press could assign multiple values. For example: by default the pedal is a volume pedal. On press of the button it turns the volume pedal off and the wah on...now the pedal is a wah pedal. Since there is only a single pedal with a button option this limits you to a single pedal. Again more of a nice to have than anything else.

The other huge reason is Pro Tools seems to be ignoring this product. I can't see them releasing more updates or patches any time soon. I hope I'm wrong, but I honestly doubt it.

If I had it to do over again (and I wish I did) I'd have saved my money and purchased an Axe FX II.

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by tpp

4. No chorus in mono output (Left XLR only):

If you want to use the chorus effect it needs to be stereo...unless this is a setting I have locally that's causing it to be ignored in mono, when I run mono (left only) XLR out of the 11 rack I don't hear any tone difference when the reverb is toggled on or off.

I'm not sure what "reverb" you are talking about. You mean the Vibrato in the C1 Chorus/Vibrato block?

I don't think the Chorus effects are that great, but what do I know, I'd never use a chorus. And I think something is just broken here at least with the C1 Chorus/Vibrato block. You can get a mono chorus or vibrato effect that sounds OK if you just put the C1 block in a mono signal path in the rig... its when that block is in a stereo signal chain that both the chorus or vibrato effect sucks (seems to be barely present at all), and that occurs whether you have a mono/L or stereo output from the Eleven Rack. In contrast the Multichorus block sounds better in stereo.

If you are having different problems it would help if you made clear what Mod/Chorus/reverb etc. block and issues you are talking about.

But it just seems like a bug to me, and yep with the core of the Eleven Rack team long since gone from Avid I have no expectation of major fixes or new features. The Eleven Rack is a great box, but if you want support/feature updates, and lots of effects, and better live capabilities then the Axe FX is clearly the way to go.