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  #11  
Old 09-17-2022, 10:15 AM
NoBruno NoBruno is offline
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Default Re: Compensate Input/Output Delay with external converters – not H/W Insert delay!

I am unclear as to the bottom line about whether there is a way to compensate for input delay after recording if I am not running and Avid interface.

I have PT Studio 2022.7.0 with a MOTU 896mk3 interface. If I send a click out of the 896 and patch a cable directly back into another input and record, the delay is 7mS. That means any overdub played while monitoring the exiting track is 7mS late. (It seems unlikely that that much delay would be caused by a DA/AD conversion, so perhaps there is some input latency associated with PT itself?)

In any case, I cannot find "Compensation for Input Delays After Record Pass" in any of my menus. I have tried setting the delay times in the H/W Insert Delay tab in I/O Setup and it has no effect.

Is there any way to preserve the temporal integrity of the signals coming in relative to what is being played back other than manually nudging every time?
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  #12  
Old 09-17-2022, 11:22 AM
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Default Re: Compensate Input/Output Delay with external converters – not H/W Insert delay!

0.68ms not acceptable? Do you realise you need to be speaking closer than 20cm (8inch) to a person to get lower latency? How come people on stage are able to perform?
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  #13  
Old 09-19-2022, 11:42 AM
gandlz gandlz is offline
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Default Re: Compensate Input/Output Delay with external converters – not H/W Insert delay!

I think the 0.68ms comment is related to my initial post.

Take one of your good recorded songs (progressive rock or other heavy rhythmic genres) and nudge your perfectly recorded vocals 0.68ms to the right.

How do your vocals "feel" now?
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  #14  
Old 09-19-2022, 05:17 PM
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Default Re: Compensate Input/Output Delay with external converters – not H/W Insert delay!

That would be 30 samples and even early reflections of reverb have not kicked in that fast. Really don't try to find a problem where there is none. But if it really bothers you, you know that you need to nudge that 30 samples every time.
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  #15  
Old 09-19-2022, 08:26 PM
nednednerb nednednerb is offline
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Default Re: Compensate Input/Output Delay with external converters – not H/W Insert delay!

When my brain starts to notice events on the 30 samples order of time scale, I take that as a cue I forgot my meds that morning or I should go to sleep or consume less coffee. Literally, I have schizophrenia and VERY odd audio time perception sometimes).

The perception of time is relative, and if you notice a sound maybe no one else does or even can. Literally. Maybe the scope cannot even tell. Base level beta wave consciousness is on the order of 12-38 Hz. I think on a brain processing level that's like a sample rate, and introspection, memory, muscle memory, and musical groove anticipation directly inform the nature of the next moment's "drum hit" (to keep it tribal, where our consciousness evolved). The anticipation of a 30 sample blip might become like the most significant thing if you sample RIGHT at the specific moment and get an outlier (every time). (On an EQ spectrum curve you see .._/-- or .__/-- so almost the same, but try again, it changed, so it seems like a PHASE ISSUE but is something else.... less strange than weird you know)

Doing weird things to phase as Albee mentioned to tightly correlated signals like stereo overheads, sure something might come up and be slightly audible. But overall, telling people it really really should be a super intense focus would be what people are pulling back on in the thread. Mostly, no one hears a difference, where there is in those specific outlier situations, being able to measure and manually nudge a track is a great enough and not too convoluted of a process.

Perhaps the computation necessary for auto magically timing everything would limit the sample rates so much we'd go from 192kHz/32bit to 12kHz/4bit recording again, with today's computers I mean.
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  #16  
Old 09-19-2022, 10:16 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is online now
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Default Re: Compensate Input/Output Delay with external converters – not H/W Insert delay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoBruno View Post
I am unclear as to the bottom line about whether there is a way to compensate for input delay after recording if I am not running and Avid interface.

I have PT Studio 2022.7.0 with a MOTU 896mk3 interface. If I send a click out of the 896 and patch a cable directly back into another input and record, the delay is 7mS. That means any overdub played while monitoring the exiting track is 7mS late. (It seems unlikely that that much delay would be caused by a DA/AD conversion, so perhaps there is some input latency associated with PT itself?)

In any case, I cannot find "Compensation for Input Delays After Record Pass" in any of my menus. I have tried setting the delay times in the H/W Insert Delay tab in I/O Setup and it has no effect.

Is there any way to preserve the temporal integrity of the signals coming in relative to what is being played back other than manually nudging every time?
I'm not sure what exactly how you are getting this. Pro Tools actually should be compensating for I/O latency. And it does when I test it.

With my RME Fireface UFX+. A click track, is multi-output: to line Output 3 which is electrically connected to line Input 3, and the click track is also output to bus 2. Track Audio 1 records Input 3, and track Audio 2 records Bus 2. They align within a sample. 96 kHz session but that won't matter. 256 sample IO buffer, but that IO Buffer size is compensated for automatically, along with the conversion latency. Attached screenshot shows the sample accurate alignment. Delay comp should not need to be enabled (it does if you were using HW inserts).

Are you using more complex routing? via sends? Start with a stupid simple test session, not using aggregate I/O. No software plugins or hardware inserts. Make sure you do not have MOTU DSP effects (do any of them have any latency, or signal loops in the MOTU hardware monitoring?), disable all that. Try to reproduce the problem you are seeing with the most trivial test session you can and share it online.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screen Shot 2022-09-19 at 8.39.03 PM.jpg (44.8 KB, 0 views)

Last edited by Darryl Ramm; 09-19-2022 at 10:29 PM.
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  #17  
Old 09-25-2022, 11:27 AM
NoBruno NoBruno is offline
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Default Re: Compensate Input/Output Delay with external converters – not H/W Insert delay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
I'm not sure what exactly how you are getting this. Pro Tools actually should be compensating for I/O latency. And it does when I test it.

With my RME Fireface UFX+. A click track, is multi-output: to line Output 3 which is electrically connected to line Input 3, and the click track is also output to bus 2. Track Audio 1 records Input 3, and track Audio 2 records Bus 2. They align within a sample. 96 kHz session but that won't matter. 256 sample IO buffer, but that IO Buffer size is compensated for automatically, along with the conversion latency. Attached screenshot shows the sample accurate alignment. Delay comp should not need to be enabled (it does if you were using HW inserts).

Are you using more complex routing? via sends? Start with a stupid simple test session, not using aggregate I/O. No software plugins or hardware inserts. Make sure you do not have MOTU DSP effects (do any of them have any latency, or signal loops in the MOTU hardware monitoring?), disable all that. Try to reproduce the problem you are seeing with the most trivial test session you can and share it online.
Thanks for the suggestion, Darryl. I created a minimal session and measure the time delay as 2 ms. Here was my process:

• Create minimal Pro Tools session with no plug-ins except a single instrument to generate a click
• Play click track out through hardware output 8 of MOTU 896mk3
• Cable output 8 to input 8
• Record input to an audio track in Pro Tools
• Compare original click and recorded sound
• Recorded sound is 2 ms late

Attached screen shot shows:

• Original click instrument track
• Committed version of same
• Internal bounce of click (send to internal PT bus and use same as input to a new audio track -- timing is sample accurate with committed track)
• Analog signal recorded as noted above - 2ms late

That seems like way more than it should take to go DA/AD, but it is within an acceptable range and if the delays were consistent, I would go on my merry way. However, my problem is that I am experiencing different delays at different times. With the same session (all the same tracks, I/O, plug-ins, etc.) I have experienced delays between 2ms and 45 ms. Most of the time, it's 2ms, but there are times when I record an overdub and it is obviously out of time. In those cases, when I immediately run a test per the above, the delay is closer to 45ms. Since the results with the exact same session are not consistent, it is very difficult to figure out the cause. The fact that I measure 2ms with my minimal session may have nothing to do with it being minimal since most of the time more complex sessions perform just as well. It is possible that if I spent long enough in the test session recording and listening to clicks, it would eventually deviate as well, I just don't think my soul could endure that.

As all intermittent behaviors, this one is pretty difficult to troubleshoot so any further suggestions are truly appreciated.
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File Type: jpg Timing delay.jpg (44.9 KB, 0 views)
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  #18  
Old 10-03-2022, 06:17 AM
gandlz gandlz is offline
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Default Re: Compensate Input/Output Delay with external converters – not H/W Insert delay!

Well, I have to correct my last post, as I was answering in a hurry and it's also some time ago I was in this topic. Actually, after posting I thought to myself, there is something wrong now in hearing 30samples delay on one track. I’m sorry for that.

So these 30samples or 0.68ms are what my clips where off in timeline after recording pass in my special scenario with mentioned converters.

The Problem in fact was that some were monitoring through external converter on ADAT and others from 192 I/O analog outputs. What Pro Tools compensates for those outputs is one story, the other one is, that these converters have different speeds, so people where hearing their mix at different times. They all felt groovy while playing but then listening to the take in control room, they were shocked about their performance first but soon was clear that there is some latency issue.
The different converters for input signals were also supporting this timing issue.

The only thing I can tell for sure is, that buying one more 192 I/O and changing everything to their analog I/Os fixed everything for me.

Maybe it would not be a problem to keep some ADAT or AES Inputs and accept them to be about 16samples late. But I really recommend everyone in studio to listen through the same Output converter.

Kind regards,
Gandlz
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  #19  
Old 10-03-2022, 06:35 AM
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Default Re: Compensate Input/Output Delay with external converters – not H/W Insert delay!

Nothing beats good testing. Darryl owns this line, by the way.

Now that you know two things:
- this does not affect groove, recording is omkay
- this makes the recorded track 30 samples late

... all you need to do is nudge back 30 samples after recording.
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  #20  
Old 10-03-2022, 07:48 AM
smurfyou smurfyou is offline
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Default Re: Compensate Input/Output Delay with external converters – not H/W Insert delay!

30 samples can't possibly have an effect on perceived groove.

Right? That's got to be within the brain's reaction time and margin of error. An Aviom would add more latency and I don't see complaints with those.

Analogue outputs and digital outputs going to converters have always exhibited different latencies. Nothing new there. I struggle to sense the problem.
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