Master fader or not?

[barismanco123]

Does pulling back the master fader only apply to PTHD or is it ok in the LE worl aswell? I thought the master fader was post fader and thatin the PT world you always have to pull things back at the source - to me it seems like turning down the monitors...

Sorry if that sounds dumb, I'm not questioning the technique more so just trying to understand it better.

[DigiTechSupt]

Originally Posted by FordVan

You show me ONE piece of gear on the market with a real life, independently verified sound to noise ratio of 144dB. Also, 24 bit offers the POTENTIAL of 144dB of dynamic range. Not every analog front end does!

While I don't sweat meters at 24 bit like I did at 16 or 20, I am still not going to sign on with being cavalier about not being mindful of good practices in gain staging.

Well, there's good practices with gain staging and there are myths that many people subscribe to. I think what most people are saying here is that one needs to understand what they're really doing at each stage and not just blindly turn up the preamp until the meter reading is 'right'.

Yes, it's good to get as much gain as you can, but that doesn't mean pushing things into the yellow in Pro Tools. Proper gain staging means keeping all gear at it's optimum gain point (usually unity when we're talking about mixers, etc.) and using the preamp to get a solid signal.

Given that most preamps also have an optimal gain point - the area where there's enough gain, but not so much that the gain circuit is pushing towards being noisy, distorting or sounding flat - the best test is to explore the gain of your preamp(s) to determine where the best setting is, even if it means a lower level coming into the DAW.

For instance, in a preamp with 60db of possible gain, there may be a point right around 40db of gain where it sounds 'best'. Setting it higher or lower than that introduces unwanted noise, a flat sound or other anomalies.

Sometimes manufacturers post noise specs that reference the amount of gain used in the test - this is usually the setting you're going to want to get as close to as possible, as the manufacturer wants to show the best noise specs and thus have found the optimal point in the gain structure that gives them that. There are caveats to this, of course.

What I see all too often is people using gain for the sake of getting 'good levels' rather than using it to get the best sound. Cranking up the gain at the preamp just so you can get a 'good' level is NOT the way to do it. There's a very wide range of 'good' levels in most DAWs - it's better to have a preamp set to it's optimum gain stage and have a lower overall level on input.

[DigiTechSupt]

Originally Posted by barismanco123

Does pulling back the master fader only apply to PTHD or is it ok in the LE worl aswell? I thought the master fader was post fader and thatin the PT world you always have to pull things back at the source - to me it seems like turning down the monitors...

Sorry if that sounds dumb, I'm not questioning the technique more so just trying to understand it better.

It's the same for HD or LE.

[barismanco123]

It's the same for HD or LE.

Thanks.

So does that make the master fader post or pre?

[Stig Eliassen]

So does that make the master fader post or pre?

Post or pre what? The inserts are post-fader, if that's what you're asking.

I always use an aux named 2MIX as my master, and all tracks are routed to this aux. I usually have a compressor and a limiter on this aux. The inputs for this aux are Bus 1-2, named 2MIX. If I were to add a master fader and choose 2MIX as the audio output path, this would control the input level for the 2MIX aux. So, if I lower the master fader, I'm effectively lowering the input level going into the compressor/limiter on the 2MIX aux.

Somewhat hard to explain, but easy to test for yourself.

IHTH

[jeremyroberts]

Guys.... let's get some terminology straight...

Some people use a master aux and call it a master fader. For the purposes of this thread, this is NOT a master fader, rather, a master aux.

In protools, a master fader exists for every bus and output. they are always active and always on, but only visible when you "create" a mf in your mixer. READ the white paper "The Pro Tools 48-Bit Mixer" - then come back here.

Remember that inserts and plugins on "master faders" are post-fader.
Remember that your mix bus (or outputs) have a tremendous amount of headroom. USE your master faders to pull your bus levels and adjust your gain staging as needed.

If you want to slap some plugins before the final output, use a master aux.

Your Homework Assignment: DRAW the signal flow of what happens to your audio as it passes through the mixer. If you can't draw the signal flow accurately, you shouldn't be mixing. If you need help, re-read the 48-bit mixer white paper.

VISUALIZE where a master fader lives relative to the signal and the outputs (physical as well as bus)

Use master faders to pull down bus levels.

Put your plugs on a master aux (pre fader) and then if you want a post-fader plug, use a master fader on the physical output (or wherever you are printing to).

DRAW your signal flow and this will be very, very clear and easy.

[DrFord]

+1 jeremy




Fordvan...
the first problem that happens when you record as hot as possible is that there is no where to go with compression and makeup gain. Part of the joy of compression with modeled devices are the sound they impart when they are driven a bit... such as the Fairchild emulations with 8 tubes, or the sound of CLA's 1176's FET circuitry. If you are slamming your audio and almost hitting red, you will find that the first thing you do is when you insert a compressor or EQ is you have to turn down the input knob... that in itself should be an idea that the input signal "pre-fader" is just too hot.

Now I myself am not a green recorder... I am a yellow recorder. Wiser men than I have talked about the scientific quality in recording exactly at -18db (green) because of optimal operation at the perfect voltage... my ears aren't that finely tuned after 10+ years in the biz... but what I find more than anything is fader creep happens. Since your mix is already starting to shape up, you want to drive the incoming signal so that you can adequately hear it, so we push the input gain. If all signals were recorded at a slightly lower volume, the yellow input signal would not be as quiet...

Take that towards summing in your mix bus, and you will find that you have room to gain stage during mastering. Most true mastering engineers will not accept mixes that RMS over -5db... because they have no room to do their job. So more than anything... if you back off a bit on your input, record halfway up the yellow, you will find your process will work a bit better and your outcome will actually end up sounding better.

All that said... as of late, for vocal recordings I have been pushing the hell out of the output of my Avalon into my Apogee AD-16x with soft limit engaged. This signal ends up recording at -6db or so, which is a bit hotter than I would normally do, but by doing this, I am forcing the converter to compress / limit my vocal signal, and I have to say... I think it sounds really good. But this of course is an exception because I am doing it for effect.

I don't know if this helps... just food for thought.


On Master Fader versus Aux Fader...

I use and Aux fader very often which I label "Sub Master". Everything is routed to it using busses, and the output of the aux fader is routed to the main output - which has a Master Fader.

Because the master fader's fader feeds the input volume to the first insert point, using the master fader when you want to write a mixout is all bad. If you write a fader sweep using automation (on the master fader volume lane) you will reduce the gain going into the first plug in of your "Mastering" chain. What you will hear is this bizarre degrading mix, until it gets considerably below the threshold of the mastering inserts, and then fades away normally.

This is why I use an Aux Fader, because as on audio and aux channels, the fader is post insert - as opposed to the master fader, which fader is pre-insert. This means that writing volume automation, would come after all the "mastering" you placed on your mix. This will give you a much nicer fade out, the mastering won't degrade as it is fading out, and it gives you the option to also bounce to track... since you could route the aux channel back to an audio track and hit record. This is what the post guys do. It has benefits and negatives... however if you are using outboard gear as hardware inserts, this is the only way to do a Pro Tools mixdown, as PT will not "Bounce to disk" with input monitoring enabled.

Doc

[FordVan]

Originally Posted by DrFord

+1 jeremy




Fordvan...
the first problem that happens when you record as hot as possible is that there is no where to go with compression and makeup gain. Part of the joy of compression with modeled devices are the sound they impart when they are driven a bit... such as the Fairchild emulations with 8 tubes, or the sound of CLA's 1176's FET circuitry. If you are slamming your audio and almost hitting red, you will find that the first thing you do is when you insert a compressor or EQ is you have to turn down the input knob... that in itself should be an idea that the input signal "pre-fader" is just too hot.

Now I myself am not a green recorder... I am a yellow recorder. Wiser men than I have talked about the scientific quality in recording exactly at -18db (green) because of optimal operation at the perfect voltage... my ears aren't that finely tuned after 10+ years in the biz... but what I find more than anything is fader creep happens. Since your mix is already starting to shape up, you want to drive the incoming signal so that you can adequately hear it, so we push the input gain. If all signals were recorded at a slightly lower volume, the yellow input signal would not be as quiet...

Take that towards summing in your mix bus, and you will find that you have room to gain stage during mastering. Most true mastering engineers will not accept mixes that RMS over -5db... because they have no room to do their job. So more than anything... if you back off a bit on your input, record halfway up the yellow, you will find your process will work a bit better and your outcome will actually end up sounding better.

All that said... as of late, for vocal recordings I have been pushing the hell out of the output of my Avalon into my Apogee AD-16x with soft limit engaged. This signal ends up recording at -6db or so, which is a bit hotter than I would normally do, but by doing this, I am forcing the converter to compress / limit my vocal signal, and I have to say... I think it sounds really good. But this of course is an exception because I am doing it for effect.

I don't know if this helps... just food for thought.


On Master Fader versus Aux Fader...

I use and Aux fader very often which I label "Sub Master". Everything is routed to it using busses, and the output of the aux fader is routed to the main output - which has a Master Fader.

Because the master fader's fader feeds the input volume to the first insert point, using the master fader when you want to write a mixout is all bad. If you write a fader sweep using automation (on the master fader volume lane) you will reduce the gain going into the first plug in of your "Mastering" chain. What you will hear is this bizarre degrading mix, until it gets considerably below the threshold of the mastering inserts, and then fades away normally.

This is why I use an Aux Fader, because as on audio and aux channels, the fader is post insert - as opposed to the master fader, which fader is pre-insert. This means that writing volume automation, would come after all the "mastering" you placed on your mix. This will give you a much nicer fade out, the mastering won't degrade as it is fading out, and it gives you the option to also bounce to track... since you could route the aux channel back to an audio track and hit record. This is what the post guys do. It has benefits and negatives... however if you are using outboard gear as hardware inserts, this is the only way to do a Pro Tools mixdown, as PT will not "Bounce to disk" with input monitoring enabled.

Doc

Holy cow.

First off, a compressor does GAIN REDUCTION. You only need the "make up gain" if the output after compression doesn't provide enough volume in your mix.

Second, if you were doing boost eq, your channel has built in headroom going to the master mix buss anyway. So, you HAVE the ability to increase the gain of certain frequencies with near impunity. Indeed, you will be decreasing volume somewhere later on.

Third, I can give a rats butt what the ME "wants". I will produce for him the mix the way I "want" it to sound at any damn level I see fit! If he can't deal with it, I will move on to the guy that can. But with that being said, it would be virtually impossible to create a mix with a -5dbfs RMS! That would sound like dog meat. BUT, even if I did, that would be the way I INTENDED the mix to sound. I don't always rely on the ME to save my mixes like some seem to! Sometimes, he can just leave things alone on a song and make the other songs fit that beautiful mix! In fact, I don't trust ME's that think they HAVE to do some compression/eq/limiting to every freakin' song. It shows they are working based upon processes, and not by what is ultimately going to sound good.

I don't mean to sound argumentative here, or to throw around a swinging prick about who is right or wrong. What I do intend to say is that most of the answers that have come back about my points are so full of holes that it is on the verge of laughable! There is not ONE SINGLE POINT that has been made yet about conservative levels that I have not already considered. I will concede to the fact that hot levels in 24 bit are not as "crucial", but again, there is little harm, and far more positives to maximizing record levels (with a prudent amount of headroom).

I refuse to tell people "Record in the yellow". First off, meters are calibrated differently. Second, are we talking RMS or Peak? CERTAINLY, real world audio levels will look VERY different depending upon the ballistics of the meters used! Just because this is PT doesn't mean it's metering is at all a true sign of what is really going on. Third, depending upon the nature of the sound being recorded, 0 dbfs peaks may STILL mean you have PLENTY of room to go in levels! It is SCIENTIFICALLY proven that a clip in audio has to last about 12 samples for it to be audible. I have seen plenty of peaking meters in digital gear on material that sounds stellar!

I am out of this one now guys. I don't wish to make waves, but I do hope that in the future it is not assumed that my knowledge of recording in on par with some newb who just bought an MBox and wants to record his demo using all in the box crap. I have been around this stuff a bit.

[Jay_uk]

Originally Posted by PT Lover

Some use a master fader to control the input of their mix buss aux, but I've never found any reason to do it that way. I use 1 master fader, and it's always sitting at unity gain.

Ah okay, I think i,m alluding to what you say regarding the mix buss aux and others have mentioned.
2 Master Faders... wrong terminology..
Good to get a handle on signal flow..gain staging

[DrFord]

FordVan,

I'm not trying to argue.. seriously, but I was once standing where you stand now. I have since crossed over to where I stand now.. and am doing so because of real world experience, education, practice, and product. If you don't like that you are being told you are wrong, don't ask questions.

Nothing I said was full of holes at all. You skipped the part about modeled compressors, and how they are designed to impart the sound of the hardware unit. Compressors aren't just about Gain reduction. I know many engineers that will run audio through certain compressors without gain reduction, or just for makeup gain because of the sound imparted. I personally don't ever touch the "gain" plug in... audiosuite only for manually leveling syllables in a phrase - never the normalize plug (but that's another thread.) There is a reason a real Fairchild costs upwards $30,000 for mint unit.

Do some research about optimal operational levels, and voltage, and you will see that when you drive electronics outside of operational range, sound degrades... even though it gets louder, it does in fact sound worse... IN fact there is a thread up where O.G. Killa describes in detail about operating voltages and their effect. In that thread, I was standing where you stand now. After actually being in the studio with OG, and in particular recording artists like Robin Ford & Michael Landau (who is the most recorded session player ever by the way), it's foolish to argue points that are just wrong.

On the mix part: that was a typo - was supposed to be -15db RMS. My bad. You are correct... a mix that was at -5db RMS before mastering would be horrible... a.k.a. Metallica's last record. Peaks however shouldn't be hitting 0 because of errors. You see, every time you clip on a master, you create an error, and every time you hit 0, you create an error. At a CD printing house, the machines can't tell the difference between a -.1, a clip at 0.0, and an over. So they all read back as errors. Too many errors and your CD cannot be pressed.

This is why mastering engineers typically put the out ceiling at -0.3 db so that no errors are incurred. This is a tried and true method since the inception of the CD. I understand that in today's MP3 world this because less prevalent or needed... nod to the no-fi movement.

Unfortunately, your knowledge of gain staging is akin with

"some newb who just bought an MBox and wants to record his demo using all in the box crap. "

And you clearly haven't had the opportunity to work with true analog mastering engineers. You would listen to what they say, because it is in the best interest of a real "ME" to help you... and by asking you to send a mix again... they are helping you. The Amateur ME just takes the project at a bargain rate and throws mastering plug ins on it, spits it back to you and doesn't doesn't say anything.

Best of luck to you. Sorry you are getting bagged on, I've been there and it sucks... but that is how we learn.