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  #1  
Old 05-26-2023, 11:38 AM
Greg Malcangi Greg Malcangi is offline
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Default Advice on setup please

I’m looking to cost a system to be used for Atmos (HT, 7.1.4). Unfortunately, I don’t have any experience with the Dolby Renderer, which will run on the same Mac Studio Ultra, nor with Dante, which I’ll need downstream (Trinnov MC Pro Dante). So any advice, pitfalls or faults I’ve missed with my two options below would be greatly appreciated! I already have a Sync HD from a previous setup btw and will probably use either a BM Ultrastudio HD Mini or 4K Mini (thunderbolt).

Option 1: Thunderbolt HDX, MTRX Studio (using Hybrid Engine). Routing: PT->Renderer In (DAB on Aux I/O). Renderer Out->HDX (PT)->Monitor out to Dante via MTRX Studio/Dadman->Trinnov. Question: Is the sync likely to be flakey using the Aux I/O with the Dolby Audio Bridge?

Option 2: DAD Core 256 and a Focusrite XP2 (2 mic inputs, output to Dante). Routing: PT->Core 256 (128ch Dante/Core Audio)->Renderer In. Renderer Out->Core 256 (Dante/Core Audio)->Dadman routing to PT and Trinnov. Note: Obviously I won’t get frame edge sync but my previous experience is this hasn’t been too much of an issue (although not good for peace of mind!). However, I don’t know what this will be like with the Renderer in the chain? On the plus side, I prefer this option because it’s much cheaper and more flexible (for my needs).

Thanks for any insight, G

Edit: Not sure it’s important but I’ll need to run PT in Rosetta mode.

Last edited by Greg Malcangi; 05-26-2023 at 11:44 AM. Reason: Added edit.
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  #2  
Old 05-27-2023, 04:48 AM
paulo m's Avatar
paulo m paulo m is offline
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Default Re: Advice on setup please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Malcangi View Post
I’m looking to cost a system to be used for Atmos (HT, 7.1.4). Unfortunately, I don’t have any experience with the Dolby Renderer, which will run on the same Mac Studio Ultra, nor with Dante, which I’ll need downstream (Trinnov MC Pro Dante). So any advice, pitfalls or faults I’ve missed with my two options below would be greatly appreciated! I already have a Sync HD from a previous setup btw and will probably use either a BM Ultrastudio HD Mini or 4K Mini (thunderbolt).

Option 1: Thunderbolt HDX, MTRX Studio (using Hybrid Engine). Routing: PT->Renderer In (DAB on Aux I/O). Renderer Out->HDX (PT)->Monitor out to Dante via MTRX Studio/Dadman->Trinnov. Question: Is the sync likely to be flakey using the Aux I/O with the Dolby Audio Bridge?

Option 2: DAD Core 256 and a Focusrite XP2 (2 mic inputs, output to Dante). Routing: PT->Core 256 (128ch Dante/Core Audio)->Renderer In. Renderer Out->Core 256 (Dante/Core Audio)->Dadman routing to PT and Trinnov. Note: Obviously I won’t get frame edge sync but my previous experience is this hasn’t been too much of an issue (although not good for peace of mind!). However, I don’t know what this will be like with the Renderer in the chain? On the plus side, I prefer this option because it’s much cheaper and more flexible (for my needs).

Thanks for any insight, G

Edit: Not sure it’s important but I’ll need to run PT in Rosetta mode.
Hi,

I think in both options you are going to pay for things you won´t be using, considering you have the Trinnov. I assume you won´t be tracking in this setup and the speaker connections will all run from the Trinnov.
On both options you have great routing options using the DADMan, really useful for switching live multichannel and Binaural Re-renders, having Dante to route to the Trinnov etc.

Option 1 has HDX and the Hybrid Engine with the Aux I/O to use HDX as playback engine and still output to the Dolby Renderer in DAB and use AAX DSP plugins.

Option 2 lacks all that, but still maintains Dante to interface the Trinnov, but you will also have physical digital connectivity you won´t be using like MADI and ADAT (Option 1 also has ADAT and analogue outs you won´t be using).

In Option 2, you will have PT using the Dolby Audio Bridge as playback engine to feed the Renderer and out of the Render you can go Dante straight to the Trinnov or first to the Core256/DADMan and then Trinnov or a combination of both, depending on your routing needs and flexibility.

So it´s a not very easy choice, but if money is a concern, I suggest that you could evaluate a third option which is just the MTRX Studio with the new Thunderbolt option. You won´t need the Focusrite for headphones and you save around 300 quid between the Focusrite price and the MTRX Studio TB option card.
You will have HDX ports still, that you can use if you feel that the HDX investment is worthwhile for your needs in the future. And all the analogue outs and ADAT, but like I mentioned, in both your 2 options you will have connectivity that you´re going to pay for and won´t be using. But you save the Thunderbolt enclosure and the HDX card for now.

https://vintageking.com/avid-mtrx-thunderbolt-3-module

https://www.avid.com/resource-center...he-mtrx-family

Regarding Rosetta, I don´t see any incompatibility at first glance running PT in that mode, but it´s wise for you to check every detail on you particular setup.

Hope it helps.
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Paulo M

MAC Studio MAX M1_64 GB RAM_1TB SSD_MAC OS Ventura

Protools Studio 2024.3

Last edited by paulo m; 05-27-2023 at 04:50 AM. Reason: Added info.
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  #3  
Old 05-27-2023, 08:44 AM
Greg Malcangi Greg Malcangi is offline
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Default Re: Advice on setup please

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulo m View Post
[1] I assume you won´t be tracking in this setup and the speaker connections will all run from the Trinnov.

[2] In Option 2, you will have PT using the Dolby Audio Bridge as playback engine to feed the Renderer and out of the Render you can go Dante straight to the Trinnov or first to the Core256/DADMan and then Trinnov or a combination of both, depending on your routing needs and flexibility.

Hope it helps.
First off, yes thanks, it does help! At least I now know that both options could work, it’s just working out which is more advantageous. Thanks for the third option but for roughly the same money, option 2 would be preferable, as I would need mic inputs and a headphone output in another room and ethernet would be a lot easier than mic and headphone cables.

Points above:
1. I may have to occasionally do some voice overs or ADR. Speakers will also be fed by Dante, so I could have the renderer output coming back into Dadman then out via Dante either directly to the speakers when tracking or to the Trinnov then speakers the rest of the time. As I understand it, the Trinnov has around 23ms of latency, which might be a problem when tracking. There might be other ways around this though.

2. With this option wouldn’t my playback engine be the DAD Core 256 (presumably via Coreaudio) and then this also as the input to the Renderer (and also the output from the renderer)? Routing with the DAB, Coreaudio, Dadman and Dante is where my knowledge is lacking! I’m working on the assumption that the DAB isn’t very reliable as far as sync is concerned or is that only when using it through Aux I/O? If it’s just the latter, would that make the advantage of option 1, the Sync HD and frame edge sync, rather pointless?

Thanks again, G
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  #4  
Old 05-29-2023, 03:59 AM
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paulo m paulo m is offline
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Default Re: Advice on setup please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Malcangi View Post
First off, yes thanks, it does help! At least I now know that both options could work, it’s just working out which is more advantageous. Thanks for the third option but for roughly the same money, option 2 would be preferable, as I would need mic inputs and a headphone output in another room and ethernet would be a lot easier than mic and headphone cables.

Points above:
1. I may have to occasionally do some voice overs or ADR. Speakers will also be fed by Dante, so I could have the renderer output coming back into Dadman then out via Dante either directly to the speakers when tracking or to the Trinnov then speakers the rest of the time. As I understand it, the Trinnov has around 23ms of latency, which might be a problem when tracking. There might be other ways around this though.

2. With this option wouldn’t my playback engine be the DAD Core 256 (presumably via Coreaudio) and then this also as the input to the Renderer (and also the output from the renderer)? Routing with the DAB, Coreaudio, Dadman and Dante is where my knowledge is lacking! I’m working on the assumption that the DAB isn’t very reliable as far as sync is concerned or is that only when using it through Aux I/O? If it’s just the latter, would that make the advantage of option 1, the Sync HD and frame edge sync, rather pointless?

Thanks again, G
Hi, sorry for late reply, had a busy weekend😀.

Ok, Point 1: Do you already have the Trinnov or going to buy one? I assume that your speakers setup are going to be fed from the outputs of the Trinnov, so basically what you have to do is on DADMan Monitor Profile/Outputs you´re going to setup Dante (in a 7.1.4 layout) as outs to feed the Trinnov. Is that simple. On the same DADMAn Monitor Profile, under Sources, you can create various inputs that you then can toggle via the user GUI or via Eucon if you have any Eucon surfaces or the AVID Control app. Those inputs are going to be the main Renderer output in 7.1.4 (also known on the Renderer as Physical) and also the Live Re-Renders that you setup on the Renderer Re-Renders page, eg. 7.1.2, 7.1, 5.1, Binaural etc. Those inputs under Source in DADMAn, will be fed via Core Audio (see Point 2 bellow), coming from the Renderer, all you have to do is to match the channel numbers of the Renderer outs to the Sources inputs. Then they all get routed to Dante as mentioned above, to go to the Trinnov.
When your´re tracking, you´re not going to use the Renderer. You will connect your Mics to the Focusrite inputs and it´s coming out via Dante to the DADMan, where on the GUI matrix, you route it to any Core Audio channels that go via Thunderbolt to your computer/DAW track input. Latency here regarding the Trinnov is not a big issue, because the talent will be listening to the headphones connected to the Focusrite, so the only latency will be the Dante network, which is minimal. Also Cue mix, talkback and returns from the DAW will be going via Dante to the Focusrite. Meaning you go out of the DAW via Core Audio, route to Dante et voilá. The latency you´ve mentioned will only be noticed in your speakers, as it´s not going to pose any problem.

Point 2: Nope, Core Audio TB is not going to be your playback engine. Well, it can be, but I suggest you use the Dolby Audio Bridge, as the it´s optimized to carry the 130 channels out of the DAW, 128 to Bed/Objects, and 129/130 to TC, to sync the PT with the Renderer. You only choose one of course.
So, PT playback engine will be DAB and then on the Renderer side, Input will be DAB and Output will be Core Audio Thunderbolt that on the DADman will be routed as mentioned above. You won´t be needing AUX I/O at all, unless you want to feed the Renderer via DAB and some other device via TB Core Audio when mixing, but that´s up to you´re particular way of working or setup. In terms of routing, all available I/O on the DAD Core, will be available on the DADMan matrix, either on the Monitor Profile section or the non- monitor routings. Meaning that Thunderbolt Core Audio, MADI, ADAT and Dante will all be available for routing between them at the max channel capabilities of each, depending on sample rate. Plenty of options.
Regarding the Sync HD, not sure if it´s compatible or not, but all you could do with it is to use it to feed WC to the DAD Core and the Trinnov, as you lack any other AVID hardware to connect it to. Also it has been discontinued in favour of the new model, Sync X. If you already have one, fine, if not, the new unit is going to cost you....

OK, so, in my opinion there is a disadvantage regarding the Focusrite connections. If you prefer to use a CAT 6/7 to carry your signal instead of analogue cabling, which is obviously great, you will have to place it inside the booth, considering you have a separate room for tracking. So mics and headphones will connect there and talent has control over the headphone volume. Cool! But then, you will be lacking an headphone out to monitor Binaural and Stereo on headphones on the Control Room. So unless you buy two units, you´re going to have to split the signal at the booth and run an analogue cable back to the CTRL Room and lack the volume control, needing to do it in the DADMan GUI.

Also, check the small video on DAD website, at 0.55 you can see the DADMan matrix with all the available I/O present for routing:

https://www.digitalaudio.dk/PRODUCTS/CORE-256

Hope it helps.
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Regards,

Paulo M

MAC Studio MAX M1_64 GB RAM_1TB SSD_MAC OS Ventura

Protools Studio 2024.3
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  #5  
Old 05-29-2023, 11:34 AM
Greg Malcangi Greg Malcangi is offline
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Default Re: Advice on setup please

Paulo, no problems with the late reply, I’m just grateful for the info!
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulo m View Post
Ok, Point 1: Do you already have the Trinnov or going to buy one? I assume that your speakers setup are going to be fed from the outputs of the Trinnov…

Point 2: Nope, Core Audio TB is not going to be your playback engine. Well, it can be, but I suggest you use the Dolby Audio Bridge …

[3]OK, so, in my opinion there is a disadvantage regarding the Focusrite connections.
1. I don’t have the Trinnov yet. The only things I already have, which would be useable from my prior setup, are a D-Control ES (hence my need to use Rosetta), a Sync HD and BB/Tri-Level generator. Thanks for all the routing suggestions, seems pretty straight forward.

2. OK, your answer implies the DAB has no particular sync issues when used as PT’s playback engine. Good to know! I was only considering Core Audio TB as the playback engine because I was under the impression the DAB has sloppy sync, although that impression might only be true when the DAB is used as an AUX I/O output? If the DAB is unreliable when used from AUX I/O, I presume that would negate the benefit of frame edge sync with my option #1 (HDX/MTRX Studio) as my playback engine would need to be the hybrid engine?

3. Yep, there are a couple of issues I’ll need to figure out (talkback from the ICON for example). Moving the Focusrite to the mix room will be easy enough if I want to monitor a binaural mix, as I can’t see I’ll be needing to record ADR and monitor binaural at the same time.

The Sync HD will probably be useless if go with option #2 as the Core 256 will take BB/Tri-level sync from the generator but it might be necessary (in standalone mode) if the Trinnov needs word clock although it should just use the Dante clock, as it’s not doing any conversion.

Thanks again, G
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Old 05-30-2023, 05:09 AM
Frank Kruse Frank Kruse is offline
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Default Re: Advice on setup please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Malcangi View Post

The Sync HD will probably be useless if go with option #2 as the Core 256 will take BB/Tri-level sync from the generator but it might be necessary (in standalone mode) if the Trinnov needs word clock although it should just use the Dante clock, as it’s not doing any conversion.

Thanks again, G
The sync HD will only work if you use the HD playback / Digilink engine. It won't do anything via core audio (or the TB option for the MTRX/DAD interface). You can connect it but PT won't resolve to it, so you can save some electricity by turning it off ;-)

See here:
https://duc.avid.com/showpost.php?p=...1&postcount=26
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Old 05-30-2023, 12:16 PM
Greg Malcangi Greg Malcangi is offline
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Default Re: Advice on setup please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kruse View Post
The sync HD will only work if you use the HD playback / Digilink engine. It won't do anything via core audio (or the TB option for the MTRX/DAD interface). You can connect it but PT won't resolve to it, so you can save some electricity by turning it off ;-)

See here:
https://duc.avid.com/showpost.php?p=...1&postcount=26
Hi Frank,

Thanks for your response!

I believe my Sync HD will only provide frame edge sync with the HDX/MTRX Studio (Option #1) with the playback engine set to HDX Classic or with the Hybrid Engine selected. With Option 2 it probably won’t be of any use, unless the Trinnov MC Pro Dante needs word clock, in which case I could use the Sync HD in standalone mode to resolve word clock from the Black Burst generator to feed the Trinnov. I won’t get frame edge sync though, as there would be no way to connect the Sync HD with PT.

Thanks for the info, G
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Old 05-31-2023, 06:50 AM
coaxmw coaxmw is offline
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Default Re: Advice on setup please

I'm not sure what monitors you are using but you might be able to get away without the Trinnov if you haven't purchased it yet. The DAMAN monitoring is pretty good and really flexible and their MOM controller gives you level and switching and cues routing. It might be worth seeing if you can get your monitoring need accomplished within the DADMAN itself.
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Old 05-31-2023, 06:56 AM
its2loud its2loud is offline
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Default Re: Advice on setup please

In either Opt 1 or Opt 2 scenario you don’t need the Trinnov. It’s a waste of money. Use DADMan Monitoring.

There’s an Opt 3 instead of Core256 if you want to skip the Focusrite.

https://www.digitalaudio.dk/PRODUCTS/AX-Center
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Old 05-31-2023, 10:42 AM
Greg Malcangi Greg Malcangi is offline
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Default Re: Advice on setup please

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Originally Posted by its2loud View Post
In either Opt 1 or Opt 2 scenario you don’t need the Trinnov. It’s a waste of money. Use DADMan Monitoring.

There’s an Opt 3 instead of Core256 if you want to skip the Focusrite.
https://www.digitalaudio.dk/PRODUCTS/AX-Center
Thanks for the advice. I’m in an unusual situation as far as my room is concerned. It was very well built, with a double shell construction but well over 40 years ago as a mono film dubbing theatre. I don’t think the acoustics are bad but almost certainly not ideal for a surround/Atmos setup and I won’t be allowed to change them much or get an acoustician in to measure or do any treatment. So in my case, the Trinnov probably will be worthwhile.

I have looked at the AX Center but from what I can see it’s not available until Q4, so I might not be able to get my hands on one for 6 months. It might be a better choice if I decide to go with option 2 and the funds don’t appear for a while though.

Thanks, G
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