DVD vrs Film levels

[garnoil]

I just finished a film mix but when I received the DVD from the final post house I was surprised to see that the levels had been increased considerably. My film mix had a maximum peak of -10dbfs but the DVD has a max peak of 0dbfs? I looked at a couple of commercially available DVDs such as Fight Club and the peak for its audio from the DVD is also 0dbfs. When mixing for film, I normally use little or no compression on the voice tracks (all leveling is mostly done by micro-dynamics and by hand) and the loudest sound in the film is limited to -10dbfs. In my room, which is calibrated at 85db spl "C" slow re -20dbfs Pink RMS this is very, very, very loud (sometimes it can hurt). So does anybody know why these commercial DVDs are peaking at 0dbfs (measured with the gain plugin in PT HD)

[KK Proffitt]

Originally Posted by garnoil

I just finished a film mix but when I received the DVD from the final post house I was surprised to see that the levels had been increased considerably. My film mix had a maximum peak of -10dbfs but the DVD has a max peak of 0dbfs? I looked at a couple of commercially available DVDs such as Fight Club and the peak for its audio from the DVD is also 0dbfs. When mixing for film, I normally use little or no compression on the voice tracks (all leveling is mostly done by micro-dynamics and by hand) and the loudest sound in the film is limited to -10dbfs. In my room, which is calibrated at 85db spl "C" slow re -20dbfs Pink RMS this is very, very, very loud (sometimes it can hurt). So does anybody know why these commercial DVDs are peaking at 0dbfs (measured with the gain plugin in PT HD)

I consider it a disturbing trend...HellBoy on BlueRay took out one of my Velodyne subs (although I was going to replace it anyway...10 years of stalwart service is all you can really ask).

[TVPostSound]

What happened to this business?
I haven't remastered for DVD in a few years, but I remember the boys, and girls from THX, and Lightstorm watching the levels like hawks. I was not to peak the VERY highest explosions past -4, and the dialogue was at -27. Compressors, they wouldn't think of letting me use one.

[jimlongo]

Originally Posted by KK Proffitt

I consider it a disturbing trend...HellBoy on BlueRay took out one of my Velodyne subs (although I was going to replace it anyway...10 years of stalwart service is all you can really ask).

Isn't that what dialnorm was supposed to cure?

[KK Proffitt]

Originally Posted by jimlongo

Isn't that what dialognorm was supposed to cure?

Actually, I thought Dolby calibrating a room for mix and playback was supposed to cure it...

Broadcast people are infinitely more responsible about dialnorm than DVD authors are. Dolby Digital (as well as AC2 which preceded it) was designed with broadcast in mind.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by garnoil

So does anybody know why these commercial DVDs are peaking at 0dbfs (measured with the gain plugin in PT HD)

I see where your frustration comes from - every once in a while I find DVDs that are mastered completely out of standard. Somebody from popular music world crosses over to post world and compresses the s**t out of soundtrack. I recently produced a Mel Bay DVD of a classical music concert with dialnorm -27, but at the authoring stage they added some corny music in the menu, which is like 15dB louder than any other of the recordings on the DVD..... The guy who did that must have thought I am a complete idiot for producing my music so quiet.

But on the other hand, I don't see why you limit your mixes to -10dBFS? That seems like a practice from the world of broadcast. There is no need to limit at -10dBFS or any other value - you can make a very soft and quiet film without a limiter, just by riding levels in your calibrated room.
By limiting, you not only lose headroom for loud effects (should you need them), but also probably kill some nice transients and clarity on the way. If you have an audiophile-quality recorded music queue with good transients (high peak value, but not perceptively loud), some of them can peak near zero, while the music is still at an overally enjoyable volume.

BTW, 'The Fight Club' dialogs are at least 3-4 dB too hot for my taste (similar to 'The Matrix' dialogs), but 0dBFS peak is not what makes them loud - the dialogs themselves probably don't go over -10dBFS. On the other hand, 99% of movies DO peak at 0dBFS, but many are NOT too loud. Take 'The Incredibles' as an example - that DVD mix uses dialnorm -31, so it has 4dB bigger headroom than most DVDs, and it often peaks at 0dBFS, but only for short durations, so it never gets unpleasant.....

Cheers!

[garnoil]

Yes you are right, this comes from the broadcast practice. I was asked to make sure that the film could play on television without any further adjustments. I normally do not limit of compress film sound.

[subwoof]

Most film mixers I know mix by ear, not meter. "If it sounds good, it is good" seems to be the motto. In fact I remember going on to dub stages at Skywalker Ranch back in the late 80's, and their SSL console in Mix D had the light bulbs in the VU meters unscrewed so they weren't bothered by those pesky levels!

Why limit your dynamics to -10? Go for it, if the film needs it!

Mike

[doug_hti]

Originally Posted by garnoil

I just finished a film mix but when I received the DVD from the final post house I was surprised to see that the levels had been increased considerably. My film mix had a maximum peak of -10dbfs but the DVD has a max peak of 0dbfs? I looked at a couple of commercially available DVDs such as Fight Club and the peak for its audio from the DVD is also 0dbfs. When mixing for film, I normally use little or no compression on the voice tracks (all leveling is mostly done by micro-dynamics and by hand) and the loudest sound in the film is limited to -10dbfs. In my room, which is calibrated at 85db spl "C" slow re -20dbfs Pink RMS this is very, very, very loud (sometimes it can hurt). So does anybody know why these commercial DVDs are peaking at 0dbfs (measured with the gain plugin in PT HD)

0db is common and fine for peaks.
Also, change your listening level to 79
you can still get away with PLENTY of dynamics without anyone complaining

[jwd]

mixing for theater allows for much more dynamics without sacrificing discernability. the opposite can be said when listening on a television set. dynamic dialogue now means reaching for the volume button on the remote, especially for those who will listen with the tv at lower volumes or prefer more a consistent level for TV viewing. i would fit in either group and therefore treat 2tk printmasters with that in mind. i tend to use a combination of gain, center channel compression and stereo bus compression to get it from a relatively dynamic and uncompressed surround mix to something that doesn't have to play loud in order to understand all of the crucial elements.

of course, some things have explosions and will be printmastered differently than those without (headroom being more of an issue with action movies and the like), but the principal of maintaining relative consistency for the 2tk is still important.

i don't mix for theater this way, but i feel it's necessary considering the fact that most dvd consumers will be listening on a tv set at a reasonably low level.