Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > Pro Tools Software > Pro Tools

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-14-2021, 03:09 PM
jsbach jsbach is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: US
Posts: 107
Default Confused about how delay compensation works on aux vs. master fader

I send all of my tracks to an aux called “mix bus”

the “mix bus” aux sends to Out 1-2

I have a few UAD plugins and Pro-L 2 on the “mix bus” aux track. On the aux track the delay compensation is 8839 and the 'dly' indicator has turned red.

The manual says that the maximum delay available is 16,383 samples at 44.1/48 kHz

My session is 48 kHz. If 16,383 is the maximum delay, then why is 8839 making my aux's dly indicator red?

What confuses me even more is that I tried moving all of the plugins off of the aux and onto the master fader. That fixed the problem. After removing the plugins and placing them on the master fader, the "mix bus" aux turned green again. The master fader's dly indicator now reads 8839, but it is orange.

Why is the exact same delay amount showing as orange on the master fader, but red on the aux when using the exact same plugins?

I'd really appreciate if anyone can help me understand the logic here. I reread the delay compensation chapter in the manual and I am still confused. I don't see any mention of aux and master fader's behaving differently in regard to delay compensation.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-14-2021, 04:04 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 15,920
Default Re: Confused about how delay compensation works on aux vs. master fader

Pro Tools version? Native? HDX? Interface? IO Buffer size?

Delay comp on the master fader/output? Which other outputs have signals going places? If there is one output/Master Fader, delay comp can't do anything to compensate for latency on it, it can't make your signal travel back in time. Orange latency indicators just means the track is the highest latency in the session

A "few UAD plugins"... and some UAD plugins can have horrendous latency. So be careful there. And again what IO buffer size are you running at...

And you are using an Aux without a live input, so AFAIK it's going to operate in the high latency/large fixed IO buffer domain, assuming you are running native (non-HDX). This is likely the root of your problems.

So why do this with an aux? Just send track outputs to a mix bus. KISS. And then play around with a trivial test session and ADC.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-14-2021, 06:13 PM
albee1952's Avatar
albee1952 albee1952 is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Norwich, CT
Posts: 37,876
Default Re: Confused about how delay compensation works on aux vs. master fader

AFAIK, latency on a master track is not compensated for(by design)
__________________
Gigabyte X79/intel i7 3930K, 32GB RAM, HD/Native, 192 IO
https://www.facebook.com/search/top/...0sound%20works


The better I drink, the more I mix

BTW, my name is Dave, but most people call me.........................Dave
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-14-2021, 06:22 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 15,920
Default Re: Confused about how delay compensation works on aux vs. master fader

Just advice for working with ADC, but look at your plugins and what latencies info the vendors document (UAD documents this very well), and see if what is being reported in Pro Tools is what you expect.

I've already mentioned UAD plugins potential high latency (for their upsampling and lookahead based plugins) and the often inherent need to run large IO buffers to support UAD plugins... but you also mention FabFilter Pro-L 2... a limiting plugin with potentially very high latency. And if running at those high latencies not something you are going to compensate for, its intended to run on the output uncompensated.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-15-2021, 03:51 AM
jsbach jsbach is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: US
Posts: 107
Default Re: Confused about how delay compensation works on aux vs. master fader

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
Pro Tools version? Native? HDX? Interface? IO Buffer size?

Delay comp on the master fader/output? Which other outputs have signals going places? If there is one output/Master Fader, delay comp can't do anything to compensate for latency on it, it can't make your signal travel back in time. Orange latency indicators just means the track is the highest latency in the session

A "few UAD plugins"... and some UAD plugins can have horrendous latency. So be careful there. And again what IO buffer size are you running at...

And you are using an Aux without a live input, so AFAIK it's going to operate in the high latency/large fixed IO buffer domain, assuming you are running native (non-HDX). This is likely the root of your problems.

So why do this with an aux? Just send track outputs to a mix bus. KISS. And then play around with a trivial test session and ADC.
Pro Tools Ultimate 2021.12
Apollo Twin
IO buffer size - 1024

Thank you for explaining. I realize that I wasn't using common sense when thinking about the master fader's delay compensation. It didn't initially occur to me that there is no delay compensation on the master fader by design. It makes sense now that I think about.

I was taught to put all of the mix bus processing on an aux instead of the master fader. Mostly because of the master fader being pre-insert. So, I never have any plugins on the master fader. All of my tracks end up at a final mix bus aux.

That makes me wonder. If you only have one master fader in your session, couldn't you just always disable delay compensation on the master fader will no issues when mixing?

If I have no plugins on the master fader, could I safely just disable delay compensation on the aux that I use for mix bus processing? That way high latency plugins would never be an issue?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-15-2021, 04:34 AM
Ben Jenssen's Avatar
Ben Jenssen Ben Jenssen is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oslo
Posts: 4,342
Default Re: Confused about how delay compensation works on aux vs. master fader

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbach View Post
Pro Tools Ultimate 2021.12
Apollo Twin
IO buffer size - 1024

Thank you for explaining. I realize that I wasn't using common sense when thinking about the master fader's delay compensation. It didn't initially occur to me that there is no delay compensation on the master fader by design. It makes sense now that I think about.

I was taught to put all of the mix bus processing on an aux instead of the master fader. Mostly because of the master fader being pre-insert. So, I never have any plugins on the master fader. All of my tracks end up at a final mix bus aux.

That makes me wonder. If you only have one master fader in your session, couldn't you just always disable delay compensation on the master fader will no issues when mixing?

If I have no plugins on the master fader, could I safely just disable delay compensation on the aux that I use for mix bus processing? That way high latency plugins would never be an issue?
I'm not shure what you're talking about. I also use an aux as my master, and have done so forever for many reasons; pre-fader plugins, routing options, and more. The master fader for your output is just a volume control. It doesn't have latency in relation to other tracks. You don't even have to have a master track in your session. The sound will just pass to the output at full speed. Or you could have one for every output in your I/O setup. Don't bother with master tracks, use a volume control. Or use the 'master' aux. Master tracks are useful for some specific situations when you need to manipulate the digital output of the PT mixer, that's another thread.
__________________
Life-long audio enthusiast and small studio owner. Retired.
Mac Mini M1, 16gb RAM. MacOS 11.6.3 Big Sur. Pro Tools 2020.12.1.191.
Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Dynaudio BM6p, Command|8, SSL UC1.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-15-2021, 05:01 AM
JFreak's Avatar
JFreak JFreak is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Tampere, Finland
Posts: 22,953
Default Re: Confused about how delay compensation works on aux vs. master fader

Quote:
Originally Posted by albee1952 View Post
AFAIK, latency on a master track is not compensated for(by design)
True. Master Fader is not a normal channel, it just gives you extra control on outputs. Can insert post-fader plugins, can manipulate levels. That is it. No delay compensation. Master Fader means output point of a mixer, whether internal (buss) or external (physical output). Everyone should understand this concept and if not, learn about it.
__________________
Janne
What we do in life, echoes in eternity.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-15-2021, 05:13 AM
jsbach jsbach is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: US
Posts: 107
Default Re: Confused about how delay compensation works on aux vs. master fader

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Jenssen View Post
I'm not shure what you're talking about. I also use an aux as my master, and have done so forever for many reasons; pre-fader plugins, routing options, and more. The master fader for your output is just a volume control. It doesn't have latency in relation to other tracks. You don't even have to have a master track in your session. The sound will just pass to the output at full speed. Or you could have one for every output in your I/O setup. Don't bother with master tracks, use a volume control. Or use the 'master' aux. Master tracks are useful for some specific situations when you need to manipulate the digital output of the PT mixer, that's another thread.
I'm probably overthinking and overexplaining. I tend to do that. My question is really that if I use an aux as my master, does it really matter if I exceed delay compensation on that aux? Can I just leave it 'red' or disable delay compensation on it?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-15-2021, 05:14 AM
JFreak's Avatar
JFreak JFreak is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Tampere, Finland
Posts: 22,953
Default Re: Confused about how delay compensation works on aux vs. master fader

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbach View Post
I'm probably overthinking and overexplaining. I tend to do that. My question is really that if I use an aux as my master, does it really matter if I exceed delay compensation on that aux? Can I just leave it 'red' or disable delay compensation on it?
Whatever is your master output (as in you print it or listen to it) does not need compensation.
__________________
Janne
What we do in life, echoes in eternity.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-15-2021, 05:31 AM
jsbach jsbach is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: US
Posts: 107
Default Re: Confused about how delay compensation works on aux vs. master fader

Quote:
Originally Posted by JFreak View Post
Whatever is your master output (as in you print it or listen to it) does not need compensation.
So, if my mix bus aux has a lot of high latency plugins and the dly indicator turns red that is no problem at all?

The red indicator led me to feel like I'm doing something wrong which triggered all of this overthinking.

Thank you for taking the time to help. I appreciate it.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Delay Compensation on Master? JazzyJ 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 3 12-19-2011 12:10 PM
Delay Compensation + Master Track twix Pro Tools 9 10 08-27-2011 03:52 PM
Can you disable Delay Compensation on Master? AINSLIE Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 7 02-15-2008 09:56 AM
Confused by delay compensation documentation jstaczek Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 3 10-22-2007 08:01 AM
Auto delay compensation and busses......confused 2fly Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 2 01-17-2005 04:26 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:40 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com