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  #1  
Old 01-06-2001, 07:24 AM
coaster coaster is offline
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Default artists pirating their own stuff- sneeky copy protesction..

in addition to creating production masters for duplication at large facilities, i also do a small amount of live recording/mastering for small numbers of cd's that i burn for clients (10-75 copies)

when i started doing this, i charged very little for the actual cutting/transfering/recording/editing/mastering of these cd's, hoping to recoup my costs by selling the artist copies for a few bucks. If they buy 50 of these, its $250 bucks for work that doesnt take much time, or i can have someone else do, or do during down time)

seeing small returns for copies, i noticed that the cd's are out there, just not being made by me.

hmmmm...

i asked a few about this and they were burning there own copies, on their computers. drat.

so i thought about this for a while, and came up with the solution shortly. it works quite well, too.

i now offer 600dpi color labels for the cd, book, and jcard, or simply the cd itself. neato makes some good stuff for doing this, and if you have acces to a $25k printer the results are mindblowing (if you do this at 600dpi).

they artist really like how proffessional there cdr's look, and sell more of them than the no-label ones.

hee hee.

they can copy the audio, but not the color labels

this adds about $0.75 to my costs and causes the artists to order cd's only from me, because they want it to look its best.

maybe a little sneaky, or maybe just higher quality product. who knows.

i learned how to do simple graphic stuff from watching my graphic designer (the one who creates artwork for the production/duplication plant masters- he is amazing). he is way better than me, but for a few cd's the artist cant afford a real graphic artist, and i do just fine for there needs.

what do you guys use against this copy making problem?

or is it one for you?

i find that a lot of people simply cant afford, or couldnt sell even the minimum amount (500) of cd's the plants will produce, so this is a fun market.
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  #2  
Old 01-06-2001, 08:51 AM
Gulliver Gulliver is offline
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Default Re: artists pirating their own stuff- sneeky copy protesction..

Local level bands have every right to charge for their work, and CD burners can make for an easy rip off.

My question is, if a band who want to "make it" is charging $10 for their album, how do they expect to get themselves out there in any kind of volume.

I say, forget the short-term income and give the CDs/MP3s away. We original musicians need to organize and offer a forum for music other than what the large corporations provide. MP3.com is a great start, but is still "for better or worse".
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  #3  
Old 01-06-2001, 01:00 PM
aquavit aquavit is offline
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Default Re: artists pirating their own stuff- sneeky copy protesction..

sometimes if you give a free sample on mp3.com youll give people more piece of mind about buying your disc.

also many people may have never heard of you...even though you dont get paid immediately you gain a fan that otherwise would be oblivious to your existance.

if this person is a real fan theyd want the official release with the fancy artwork and BONUS TRACKS -so youd win in the end.

any press is better than no press.

i think its perfectly feasable to both "give away" and sell music at the same time.
but its different when other people give away your music(even then its more exposure none the less)

just a few musings ,
aquavit
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  #4  
Old 01-06-2001, 03:03 PM
Gulliver Gulliver is offline
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Default Re: artists pirating their own stuff- sneeky copy protesction..

The difference between "forgetting the short term income" as an independent and as a signed artist is huge. I'm suggesting to stay independent.

If you're not going to get rich in the short term either way, you're better off to roll the dice as an independent and be in control if things take off. Things will never take off if your music only makes it into select hands.
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  #5  
Old 01-06-2001, 06:37 PM
onemanband onemanband is offline
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Default Re: artists pirating their own stuff- sneeky copy protesction..

A free sample is ok as long as it's only a sample (teaser), whether it is with a physical product such as a CD or a performance.

In my experience musicians in general are very poor negociators (not you specifically ). If you do get a major label deal you take a draw against a percentage of the profits. Do actors do this?? A Club wants me to play for peanuts on the expectation that there'll be milk and honey down the road. I ask them if the beer guy and the power company give them lower rates because they're just starting out. They hire someone else at the peanut rate.

I used to work for free or low rates for charities to support the cause and get some exposure. Guess what? The county administrator for the charity is making $275k while I'm generating many more requests for free performances. Now I charge top dollar and they pay it and don't blink.

If you give it away, people expect more of the same.

If you want good fans and clientele you have to give them quality and charge them for it. A good customer is not one who is looking for a handout.

There is a middle ground in the music world where you can make 40-100k or more and do what you love, but it is made more difficult by those who think they can hit a home run while giving away the ranch. That's just bad business. Like they say - don't quit your day job.

If it's good enough to put out there, charge and get a fair price. If it's not, go home and practice and make it better.

Did I mention that this a sore point with me?

End of Rant

Bob
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  #6  
Old 01-06-2001, 06:51 PM
Gulliver Gulliver is offline
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Default Re: artists pirating their own stuff- sneeky copy protesction..

The difference between performing as a live musician and marketing a recording is, again, huge.

If everyong who came to your show received a free CD, do you think that the chances of them coming back are more or less? If they don't come back, you better go back into the studio. If they do come back, you're starting a following.

Again, we need a better forum for original music. Whether my suggestion will work or not is yet to be seen. Any better ideas?
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  #7  
Old 01-06-2001, 07:20 PM
AnalogTree AnalogTree is offline
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Default Re: artists pirating their own stuff- sneeky copy protesction..

One man has some interesting points up there. Rant some more please
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  #8  
Old 01-06-2001, 08:55 PM
bronson bronson is offline
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Default Re: artists pirating their own stuff- sneeky copy protesction..

Thank you Bob (onemanband). I can't even count how many arguements i've gotten in with idealist kids who are "in it for the love of the music, man." I'm also in this for the love of the music - but I gotta eat! Don't give away anything for free (except teasers). Don't pay a club to perform because you might get noticed. We're not just artists, we're professionals. It's taken me 24 years to be able to do what i can do on a piano. I'm not making a hundred bucks for a 3hour job - I'm making a hundred bucks for 24 years of working on my craft. A doctor goes to school for 12 years, and this justifies charging crazy fees to sit in their waiting room. Musicians need to start filling their waiting rooms.

Anyway - sorry to get off the subject. Coaster, I really like your idea with the visuals. Do you own this wonderful Copier? How do you copy graphics directly onto a CD? I haven't bought a printer for my new G4 yet - any suggestions?

++bronson
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  #9  
Old 01-06-2001, 10:34 PM
coaster coaster is offline
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Default Re: artists pirating their own stuff- sneeky copy protesction..

one mone- nice rant, glad to hear it. do you think i should charge more than $7 for a colorized cd-r?

bronson- i dont own anything that costs $25k. i use the copier at Kinkos. its about $13 for 16 cd labels. the most expensive single thing i own is my pt rig. i may have that much in rackmount gear though.....

i use the neato stuff, photo grade or matte finish, depending on what they want. cheap.

i am worth more than $7 a cd, but how can i charge more? its a cdr, not a pressed cd, a live performance instead of a studio perf, and they have to sell it for $10-12. i dont think i can charge much more than that. if bands are REALLY buying these, i direct them to the duplication plants and charge them more.
with one band, their disc has a lot of covers, so i am probably breaking the rules a little bit by reproducing these, and we cant send them to the dupes. but the 6-75 or so we sell to their fans are enjoyed; is this wrong?
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  #10  
Old 01-06-2001, 11:31 PM
onemanband onemanband is offline
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Default Re: artists pirating their own stuff- sneeky copy protesction..

Let me mention something specific about the difference between performing as a live musician and marketing a recording.

The same principles apply.

Case in point: Mavericks - a country western band out of Miami (of all places) where I am from. They spent a year or two here playing clubs and events. The woman who owned the main club they played at (Cactus Cantina on South Beach) and featured them on a continuing basis is now an agent who hires me regularly. They got what the market would bear and moved on up. I made $130 one afternoon because they wanted to use my guitar for a photo shoot. I said whatever and they said $130 and I said OK. These guys went straight to the top and they got paid every step of the way. When they got to Nashville their music was too sophisticated for country radio, their live shows kicked ass but they they couldn't get airplay - so they collaborated with established country songwriters in Nashville. Got the job done. Do you think they could have borrowed my guitar for the photo shoot at no charge? Yes, absolutely, but they didn't want to. What does that say about the way they did business? PRO'S. That's what it says. Just like the olympics - you're a pro because you get paid.

Do you think these guys are selling records? They did the Roger Miller special AND the Patsey Cline special on TNN. Raul Malo (lead singer) sang Blue Moon on the Tom Hanks Apollo movie soundtrack. If they never sold one CD they would be making lots of $. They have several hits in Europe.

They didn't give it away - they sold it from the very start - and they made damn well sure they had a quality product so people would come back.

They went the major label route but I don't think you have to these days. But whichever route you go you have to know your music and know your marketing. It's not just art - it's sales and marketing too. If you can't market yourself that's OK, but then you have to find someone to help you or you'll be nowhere. Like they say 10% inspiration, 90% perspiration. The perspiration is sales. It's difficult but can be learned. It's actually easier than music but much more boring.

Performing live and marketing a recording is directly related though they can be done separately - just not as well. There are many approaches - Just don't anyone tell me i have to do it for free. I'm a businessman who can sing a song - and I just don't buy it!

btw - Coaster - I don't really have a feel for how much you should charge for the colorized CD's - sorry. I thought your original idea sounded good - some of the responses just sent me off on a tangent.

Bob

ps - did I mention this is a sore point with me??

pps - Once I learn to record well I could be dangerous and thanks for all your help on the DUC.


[This message has been edited by onemanband (edited January 07, 2001).]
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