Mixing protocol?

[Forrest77]

Sometimes it seems it takes me forever to mix a song. I love the process, but clients aren't as pleased.
Would anyone like to share the steps they take in the mixing process? How long do you spend on a mix?

Basically, when doing a basic rock track I first listen to each track indivdually and clean things up via eq'ing, editing, effecting, etc.
Then I create a master fader and start building a drum mix, then add the bass, then guitars, then vocals.
Once I have a running mix, I start writing the needed automation.
Then I add the slightest bit of MAXIUM to keep the mix out of the red, bounce to disk, then re-open the mix and do what I consider to be mastering, which is some final fade/eq/compression adjustments.

[BCBud]

You have clients, and you don't know how to mix?
What are their names and #'s

[Steve Moore]

That was rude... [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

[Steve Moore]

May I suggest www.artistpro.com? Their archives are rich w/ material related to engineering in general, moderated by some big names...

[marcusb]

There isn't really any set method for mixing everyone approaches a 'mix' differently it's a highly personal thing.

However in my experience i've found it best to get a basic mix going without the client around. I'll spend some time getting a mix going that i'm happy with and then get the client in for their feedback and usually will start working on automation with them. To take this approach you really need to develop a significant amount of trust from the client, and make sure you're all shooting for the same goal. This often comes from experience and having an established reputation but you'll need to address it on a client-to-client basis.

I have found that when you have clients in the room when you are pulling up a mix they will tend to lock onto individual sounds and lose their objectivity particularly when a mix is in a half finished state. You'll always have them on the couch going "there's too much verb on the vocals, what's that guitar sound, why are the drums so loud" to which you generally can only respond with "IT'S NOT FINISHED YET!" it can really slow down your mixing session and break your concentration.

As for mixing approaches, I tend to avoid solo'ing each channel and EQ'ing ... I used to do this years ago when I first started engineering and was always disappointed in my results. By getting each track sounding great on its own will often result in a bunch of tracks that while sounding great solo'd sound terrible summed together.

Most of the stuff that I work on is your indie rock/pop type stuff (ie. guitar, bass, drums, vox) .. and usually i'll throw all the faders up and get a rough balance over a few passes, this helps me get an idea of what's going on in the song and lets me make a few mental notes of how to approach it.

From there i'll usually go drums + bass first. With drums i'll pull up my overheads and EQ them lightly to get them sounding sweet. I try and get a nice general kit balance going from the overheads then pull up the kick + snare and EQ them lightly to fit in with the overheads. I think hone in on the toms there and usually will have a listen to how the room mics are contributing to the overall sound.

After the drums are sounding reasonably balanced i'll bring in my bass and get the rhythm section rocking. After that i'll pull up the guitars and balance the whole kit+bass+guitar mix.

During the whole process i'm often switching the vocals in and out to see how it's all sitting with the vocals as a reference. Once I have a good balance going i'll then start doing more brutal EQ to get everything locking in nicely. You'll often find if you then solo any of your channels you might be in for a bit of a suprise. Often your guitars will sound terrible solo'd but great in the mix cos the sum of the parts is where the sound is at.

Again this approach is just what I find I do reasonably often, however it does change from artist to artist and even song to song.

Cheers,
Marcus

[minimoog]

much like marcus, i just kinda push things up and work it into a balance. usually start with drums then add the other parts. if vocals are a feature, never leave them till last. a lot of people do this but it never seems to work right for me.

remember that everything is going to interact with everything else so what you percieve as a good sound in track solo is not necessarily going to work well when it's actually part of the mix. sometimes things that are working really well in the mix might sound like absolute bollocks on their own but once you understand just what that particular element is adding to the overall sound, you're well on your way.

you have to start a mix with a sonic goal in mind but never aim for a result that either will not suit the song or is not obtainable with the recording you have. as an extreme example, a loud guitar based song charging ahead at 159BPM or so is not going to leave a great deal of room for reverb or big room sounds but you may be able to sneak someting unconventional in to mess with it a little.

trial and error is the best tutor and don't be afraid to break the rules. the tools you have are there for the usin' so use them all but make sure to use them wisely. and be patient. you can't learn to mix overnight.

[Forrest77]

Thanks to everyone who shared their knowledge and points of view in a positive manner.
I admit I was a bit vague. The problem is that it seems to my clients that I am spending too much time on a mix. I find myself giving them a rough mix just to get keep them out of my hair while I work on the final project. I guess my question should have been: How much time do you invest in a mix before you pull yourself away from it?
I am still somewhat new to mixing music in the ProTools world. FYI I have my degree in audio engineering and I work at a very nice studio, but most of my experience is rooted in voice-over work.

[chriswebb]

Forest77,
How long have you been at this? As in years?
Chris

[Steve Moore]

Again, www.artispro.com has some links that will talk about EQ and how to make instruments sit right in a mix. Eq'ng instruments indiviually (such as via solo) doesn't work. You have to be thinking in cumulative terms and decide which instruments will sit in which freq ranges. Try not to have too many overlapping signals.

Use subtractive EQ rather than additive wherever possible to remove notches of unwanted freq from an instrument that needs to share a range with another similar instrument. Let the two instruments be notched at different freq so that they compliment rather than compete. I find that using even multiples for this can work well. For example, have two ryhthm guitars notched w/ peaks an octave or two apart. Put the leads at musical intervals 3rds, 5ths and so on. This can take a bit of math, practice and experimentation.

The underlying principle is that any two freq summed together produce frequencies above and below the fundamentals (referred to as harmonics). Frequencies that are not mathmetical multiples tend to sound more distorted and dissonant, a type of distortion that is less pleasing.

In the end, it is the ear that counts. By 'tuning' a mix you can avoid (or not) certain types of phase cancelation and other harmonic interactions.

Use subtractive EQ because additive adds gain and as a result more harmonic distortion. Small adjustments because there will be many that add up to a cumulative result.

Often, a slight adjustment in one instrument can require additional fiddling with another. Rememeber, unlike voice-overs which deal with a narrow limited freq spectrum, music is a bunch of stuff that needs to share the sonic space together in a complimentary way.

I try to do as much mixing in groups as possible, run the groups to subs and use the subs to mix over all balance. Whereas w/ voice-overs you may tend to mix visually and get away w/ it, musically you have to learn to trust your ears.

Something I am experimenting with is anaylzing the frequencies associated with a particular key, then using these principle frequencies in the mix together.

So by planning the EQ of a mix you can tweak the instruments tones to be more complimentary and have less cumulative harmonics that are not mathmatically or sonically as pleasing.

[Steve Moore]

One other comment, I don't allow alot of people around when starting a mix. Most clients won't understand the mixing process and will just be a PITA without meaning to. If it's time they are concerned with then they can minimize this by NOT being there when you do the majority of final mixing.

This isn't as true w/ seasoned pros who understand the process so it depends largely on the client.