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  #11  
Old 06-22-2022, 09:18 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is online now
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Default Re: Please please help... Catalina + 2022.5 + MBox Pro?

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Originally Posted by jd1234 View Post
Thanks for the thorough the response. Certainly very helpful but also overwhelming. Since you seem pretty knowledgeable with all this, maybe you can answer a couple of these basic questions for me. Or anyone else who sees this, I would appreciate it...

1.)With a lot of these interfaces like Apollo and RME it says they have a ton of inputs but i am not seeing them on the interface. For example the Twin Apollo says 10 inputs but when i look on the device i only see 2 mic inputs and 1 direct line input (3 total). Where are the other 7? What am i missing?
The interfaces you are looking at have large scale I/O expansion via ADAT (or ADAT/SMUX) or MADI. ADAT gives you up to 8 channels of input or output per TOSLINK connector. MADI gives you up to 64 inputs and 64 outputs per optical fiber or coaxial copper loop connection. Both essentially borrowing AES/EBU aka S/PDIF digital formats multiplexed onto faster media. And then there is more modern/complex networking based audio with main two technologies AVB and Dante. So with these interfaces for example you can connect up an outboard ADAT or MADI or AVB or ... mic preamp or I/O box and to add analog inputs or outputs to the interface. Lots of folks for example have ADAT preamps already so they get to use them when buying an interface. Many larger studios are already wired to use MADI or DANTE to reticulate I/O around the facility and you can just give say a user a small interface box and they can get to work, with a little local I/O and connection to much more. Anyhow even if that does not appeal to you now you might want to say think about ADAT inputs so you can add more mic preamps in future. ADAT preamps cover a range with some quite well priced/channel preamps. I'm a fan of MADI, it's old tech but works, and lets you get I/O boxes deployed over easy to run thin optical fiber. Long distances. No copper, no ground loops, etc. Anyhow enough acronyms for you to google for more details if you are interested.


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2.)It looks like there is a difference between a regular SPDIF and a SPDIF TOSLINK right? The SPIDF TOSLINK has an optical connector which is different type of connection than regular SPDIF.
There is no such thing as "regular S/PDIF". There is S/PDIF over TOSLINK and S/PDIF over coaxial copper (if used properly: RCA connectors to "digital" 75 ohm coax, not standard analog audio coax/cables), and OK they are the two common ones, there are other rarely used physical layers for S/PDIF. You alway have to be clear what physical connection is being used. And the professional AES/EBU is nearly identical to S/PDIF but they are on XLR connected balanced cables (if used properly: "digital" 110 ohm impedance), in some cases you can directly cross wire an AES/EBU to S/PDIF (read the device specs, RME makes sure their AES/EBU ports can be wired to S/PDIF coaxial).

Any random TOSLINK connector may or may not support S/PDIF and/or ADAT. You have to look at the details. And coaxial copper and TOSLINK on consumer gear might also support multichannel/surround formats... which are very different than S/PDIF or ADAT.

Quote:
So a unit like the Apollo Twin only has 1 digital ouput which is a SDIF TOSLINK, however arent' most of the Preamps and Preamp & Converter in one units using regular SPIDF?

For example I use a NEVE1073 with a Rosetta 200 Converter and that Rosetta Converter only has a regular SPDIF output, not a SPIDF Toslink (Optical). Likwise I have a API A2D preamp and converter in one unit that also has a SPDIF output but not the SPDIF Toslink. So it is safe to say I can't use either of these chains with the Twin Apollo right? At least not using the SDIF connector anyway? Using anything other than digital seems completely pointless to me so I am not sure what the draw would be if this is true.
The Apollo Twin has one TOSLINK *input* which supports S/PDIF or ADAT. When manufacturers label stuff "optical" it's a good clue it supports more than one protocol or otherwise they'd label it with that one. What protocol is used by that port is configured in the device setup. The specs say it supports S/MUX, which allows connection at rates higher than 44.1 or 48 kHz standard ADAT by pairing up 44.1 or 48 khz ADAT channels, but you lose channels when it does that. Many S/MUX systems make up for this by having a second parallel TOSLINK that comes into use at higher sample rates to avoid losing so many inputs or outputs. Since the Twin has only one TOSLINK input port, and they say it has S/MUX up to 192kHZ that means you get 8 inputs on ADAT at 44.1/48 kHz or 4 inputs at 88.2 or 96kHz using S/MUX or two inputs at 176.4 and 192 kHz using S/MUX.

And a Rosetta 200 converter just won't beat a modern converter in a quality interface. Technology moves on and what was state of the art decades ago is no longer. Love me a Neve 1073 but it would go into the line level inputs on my RME gear. And the Rosetta would probably be for sale on Reverb.

Your API box has a AES/EBU output and on many higher-end interfaces I'd be using that over S/PDIF on copper or TOSLINK. Or if your interface only has S/PDIF on TOSLINK then just get a TOSLINK to copper coax S/PDIF outboard converter. But again with older gear, don't assume the outboard conversion will be best. I'd A/B listen to also driving the API preamp box into a good interface analog line inputs.

Quote:
In a nutshell it surprises me that something as popular as the Apollo Twin Interface only has 1 digital input, and that 1 digital input is not even a regular SPDIF but a SPDIF Toslink. I am guessing this is why you say you use RME right? Because it has more options for digital outputs?
Again, no such thing as "regular" and TOSLINK is a fairly common choice, and has benefits of electrical isolation. And higher end pro-gear is going to offer AES/EBU not S/PDIF on copper.

UAD doesn't seem big on S/PDIF or AES/EBU connectivity in general, even their highest end interfaces give you very little there, a turn off for me. And yes RME provides more, but more importantly to me they are a big proponent of MADI and I can hang all sorts of converters off MADI (and to be fair I could hang a RME ADI-192DD converter box off ADAT/SMUX on a larger UAD interface and provide up to 8 AES/EBU (or coaxial copper compatible S/PDIF) inputs and outputs.

If the big attraction of UAD interfaces are the UAD DSP powered plugins be careful that the DSP power in a Twin is unlikely to get you far and you may be buying add on DSP units. But that add-on power does not help you running plugins in the Apollo Console. It's a complex environment worth doing some reading about (read the hardware and software manuals) if you want to go UAD... and they do make great gear and very nice plugins, and are adding native plugins, but UAD are very good at extracting money from addicted plugin users
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  #12  
Old 06-23-2022, 12:52 PM
jd1234 jd1234 is offline
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Default Re: Please please help... Catalina + 2022.5 + MBox Pro?

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Originally Posted by Bookerv12 View Post
Hi,
More and more products come with Toslink SPdif.
Some of them switch between SPDif and Adat 8 channel audio.
If you have a piece of gear with SPdif out on an RCA jack, you can get an RCA to Toslink converter.
(SPdif on Toslink is a stereo connection just like the RCA jack)

I don't have the Apollo, but I'm pretty sure it has a Toslink 8 channel input. (The Adat standard)
That accounts for the 8 extra inputs.
The two inputs are switchable between Mic and Line.

I'm in a totally different world for I/O and A/D-D/A, but got to use a new Presonus interface at a friend's the other day.
It had an impressive set of features, too many ins and outs, and sounded great.

There are lots of options out there for any price point.
Thanks for the response. I was wondering if there was some sort of converter that can be used. I am guessing you are referring to something like this... https://www.amazon.com/Optical-Conve...01N32C5GT?th=1

As far as the 10 channels but only seeing 2 on the actual interface, i honestly still don't get it. Same with a lot of the other interfaces, like interfaces that say 24-channel inputs and so on. Where are all the channels/inputs coming from if they are not on the actual interface itself? I realize there's probs a very obvious explanation to this but I am fairly new to this so somewhat clueless.
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  #13  
Old 06-23-2022, 12:53 PM
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Ben Jenssen Ben Jenssen is offline
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Default Re: Please please help... Catalina + 2022.5 + MBox Pro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jd1234 View Post
As far as the 10 channels but only seeing 2 on the actual interface, i honestly still don't get it. Same with a lot of the other interfaces, like interfaces that say 24-channel inputs and so on. Where are all the channels/inputs coming from if they are not on the actual interface itself? I realize there's probs a very obvious explanation to this but I am fairly new to this so somewhat clueless.
A typical usb audio interface could have eight analog I/O. Also it might have ADAT connectors, that's 8 digital I/O's. and probably a S/PDIF connection, that's two I/O's. The manufacturer would sell it as a "18 channel I/O interface". See?
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  #14  
Old 06-23-2022, 01:11 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is online now
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Default Re: Please please help... Catalina + 2022.5 + MBox Pro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jd1234 View Post
As far as the 10 channels but only seeing 2 on the actual interface, i honestly still don't get it. Same with a lot of the other interfaces, like interfaces that say 24-channel inputs and so on. Where are all the inputs coming from if they are not on the actual interface itself? I realize this is probs a very simple question but I am fairly new to this so clueless.
Huh? The inputs and outputs *are* on the interfaces, but they are digital. If you want analog interfaces you need to connect a converter somewhere out on the other end of a digital connection. How many analog I/O and/or digital I/O you want in an interface is up to you.

The attached photo is the back of my interface. 64 inputs and outputs of MADI on that thin orange fiber optic loop connection (well actually 32 given it's running at 96kHz). Multiple boxes connected to the MADI via AES/EBU boxes... currently several guitar processor/amp sim boxes. The coax is being used for word clock, AES/EBU output going to a Grace monitor controller, a couple of channels of analog output going to I have no idea where. None of the analog inputs being used on the interface box at the current time.

But what actually do you need? It doesn't sound like you need a lot of concurrent I/O?
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  #15  
Old 06-23-2022, 02:09 PM
jd1234 jd1234 is offline
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Default Re: Please please help... Catalina + 2022.5 + MBox Pro?

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Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
Huh? The inputs and outputs *are* on the interfaces, but they are digital. If you want analog interfaces you need to connect a converter somewhere out on the other end of a digital connection. How many analog I/O and/or digital I/O you want in an interface is up to you.

The attached photo is the back of my interface. 64 inputs and outputs of MADI on that thin orange fiber optic loop connection (well actually 32 given it's running at 96kHz). Multiple boxes connected to the MADI via AES/EBU boxes... currently several guitar processor/amp sim boxes. The coax is being used for word clock, AES/EBU output going to a Grace monitor controller, a couple of channels of analog output going to I have no idea where. None of the analog inputs being used on the interface box at the current time.

But what actually do you need? It doesn't sound like you need a lot of concurrent I/O?
So you are saying with digital input/output connections like ADAT or SPDIF on these interfaces you can connect to another preamp that holds say 8 channels or whatever it holds? So like this Twin Appollo 10 inputs. It has 2 input/mic analog iputs on the device itself and then the other 8 you can connect by using the SPDIF connector which connects to another preamp that has 8 channels? And thats the 10 total right there.

Also you mentioned the Rosetta200 kinda blows compared to newer converters. I don't doubt it. So you think it may be better to run the Neve1073 channel into whatever audio interface? So instead of going Neve107 => Rosetta => Interface, you are saying it may be better to go Neve1073 => Interface ?
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  #16  
Old 06-23-2022, 02:38 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is online now
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Default Re: Please please help... Catalina + 2022.5 + MBox Pro?

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Originally Posted by jd1234 View Post
So you are saying with digital input/output connections like ADAT or SPDIF on these interfaces you can connect to another preamp that holds say 8 channels or whatever it holds? So like this Twin Appollo 10 inputs. It has 2 input/mic analog iputs on the device itself and then the other 8 you can connect by using the SPDIF connector which connects to another preamp that has 8 channels? And thats the 10 total right there.
As I think I said pretty clearly, with ADAT, MADI, AVB, or DANTE etc. you can use multi-channel boxes to provide I/O to an interface that has one of those digital connections.

The Rosetta 800 you have already *is* an ADAT line level input and output box.

Like... a large range of products at many price points and capabilities. Preamps and/or line level, maybe with Mic DI, maybe remote control preamp gain, maybe multiple digital outputs, different sample rate support etc. etc.

https://vintageking.com/recording/co...el-adat-preamp

https://vintageking.com/audient-asp800

https://vintageking.com/heritage-aud...s-a-mic-preamp

https://vintageking.com/rme-12mic-pr...audio-networks (an example of a preamp box with multiple format support, ADAT, MADI or AVB, your choice but you pay $$$)

https://vintageking.com/rme-m-1610-pro-madi-network-i-o (an example of a line-level I/O box with multiple format support, ADAT, MADI or AVB, your choice but you pay $$$)

https://vintageking.com/neve-1073opx...te-card-bundle


Quote:
Also you mentioned the Rosetta200 kinda blows compared to newer converters. I don't doubt it. So you think it may be better to run the Neve1073 channel into whatever audio interface? So instead of going Neve107 => Rosetta => Interface, you are saying it may be better to go Neve1073 => Interface ?
I didn't say it blows, just that is may not be worth the effort to run as a outboard converter, esp. since it sounded like you are just using one channel of I/O with it.

As long as you have a decent interface and a spare analog line input you can just throw your mic preamp output into that.. or if you don't have enough line inputs again you can add a decent preamp/line in box on ADAT or MADI or whatever digital I/O connection if your interface has that... and again the Rosetta 800 is such a box if you have an interface with ADAT Input.
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  #17  
Old 06-23-2022, 04:39 PM
jd1234 jd1234 is offline
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Default Re: Please please help... Catalina + 2022.5 + MBox Pro?

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Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
As I think I said pretty clearly, with ADAT, MADI, AVB, or DANTE etc. you can use multi-channel boxes to provide I/O to an interface that has one of those digital connections.

The Rosetta 800 you have already *is* an ADAT line level input and output box.

Like... a large range of products at many price points and capabilities. Preamps and/or line level, maybe with Mic DI, maybe remote control preamp gain, maybe multiple digital outputs, different sample rate support etc. etc.

https://vintageking.com/recording/co...el-adat-preamp

https://vintageking.com/audient-asp800

https://vintageking.com/heritage-aud...s-a-mic-preamp

https://vintageking.com/rme-12mic-pr...audio-networks (an example of a preamp box with multiple format support, ADAT, MADI or AVB, your choice but you pay $$$)

https://vintageking.com/rme-m-1610-pro-madi-network-i-o (an example of a line-level I/O box with multiple format support, ADAT, MADI or AVB, your choice but you pay $$$)

https://vintageking.com/neve-1073opx...te-card-bundle




I didn't say it blows, just that is may not be worth the effort to run as a outboard converter, esp. since it sounded like you are just using one channel of I/O with it.

As long as you have a decent interface and a spare analog line input you can just throw your mic preamp output into that.. or if you don't have enough line inputs again you can add a decent preamp/line in box on ADAT or MADI or whatever digital I/O connection if your interface has that... and again the Rosetta 800 is such a box if you have an interface with ADAT Input.
Okay thanks again for the explanation. I understand now with the number of channels. Also think I have somewhat of a better idea of how to proceed. For one, I am inclined to take advantage of the Thunderbolt Interfaces. If I am going to update to something new I feel like it would be worth it to get an interface with that connectivity even though i see some people say USB is enough.

As far as different digital connectivity, i don't think i'll need a ton of different optoins. Just as long as it has one digital (SPDIF or ADAT) I should be fine. If i have to use the COAX to Optical Toslink converter Ill just do that. Or use the Toslink to AES converter.

With respect to converters I'll just try it both ways... with the converters I have (API and Rosetta) and also try the converters in whatever interface i get.

I like the RME's but cheapest one with thunderbolt is double the cost of an UA thunderbolt one. I realize there are other differences but since i don't need a ton of inputs or the optionality of other digital connectivity i feel like the UA Twin Apollo models (quad) in particular are most practical even though I am not a huge plugins or effects guy. At least i normally don't print/record with them and probs won't even mix my own ****. Still the UA models seem most practical for the price point. Pre-Sonus has an interface with thunderbolt that looks pretty good but still inclined to go with one of the UA thunderbolt interfaces to have the option of using the plugins.

I'm sure i am missing a bunch of factors to consider and if any come to mind please feel free to point em out. Or if my logic is off with anything i've concluded. Thanks again for help so far.
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  #18  
Old 06-23-2022, 05:22 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is online now
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Default Re: Please please help... Catalina + 2022.5 + MBox Pro?

You *don't* need thunderbolt... UAD arguable does because they need to run their DSP plugin processing over the same link the audio works over. And cough, UAD don't actually deliver stunning low latencies. RME have good videos explaining all why you don't need Thunderbolt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSIf4QGYs-c And you have lots more connectivity options with USB. I have the UFX+ and a Thunderbolt Mac... and I connect it via USB 3.1.

I would have thought if any RME interface made sense for you it was probably the UCX II.

But there are many Thunderbolt interface that are clearly great for lots of reasons from UAD to Apogee to Presonus to ...

If you care about latencies you can read up on all the RTL measurements folks make on interfaces, but it's often a waste of time rat-hole. https://gearspace.com/board/music-co...data-base.html But notice which vendor dominate that list... just one sign RME makes good stuff.

I think the reason to buy UAD interfaces is if you really want their DSP plugins in the console and are willing to pay for all that. And I do think their plugins are great, I just don't want to have to pedal their $$$ plugin train down the track.

To me it's actually vendor quality and support that matters a lot, folks like RME, UAD, Motu give me warm fuzzies.
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  #19  
Old 06-23-2022, 07:07 PM
smurfyou smurfyou is offline
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Default Re: Please please help... Catalina + 2022.5 + MBox Pro?

No you definitely don't "need" Thunderbolt.

RME, Metric Halo, and MOTU all make good USB interfaces with analogue and digital I/O.
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