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  #21  
Old 04-07-2023, 03:19 PM
evanbenjamin evanbenjamin is offline
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Default Re: Deliver Mix Sessions to platforms Amazon / Netflix / ...

This comes up a lot, and I really think people overthink this. No one is rummaging through your session for your innovative routing techniques or mixing secrets. Award winning mixers upload their sessions on the daily. We can too.

No one from an sfx library is going to figure out where the sfx came from and hunt you down. No one is going to reuse some sound they found in a session. Who would wade through the mountain of material they get in a day to find some sound you recorded one day and steal it? They do it to make their lives easier when they need help with foreign deliverables. Your stem isn’t split off enough, or some such. Archiving purposes, so someone ten years down the road can sell this to someone else. This is work for hire, you’re not some tortured genius with some secret that’s going to get stolen. I emphatically include myself in this too, by the way.

I’m currently uploading my sessions to Netflix for a series just concluded. Next week I’ll probably have to do that for a feature on Hulu. Do it, get paid, and move on with your life. Clients will not be thrilled that you kicked up a fuss with their client (the streamer) and made their life even a tiny bit more annoying.
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  #22  
Old 04-07-2023, 04:13 PM
its2loud its2loud is offline
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Default Re: Deliver Mix Sessions to platforms Amazon / Netflix / ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by evanbenjamin View Post
This comes up a lot, and I really think people overthink this. No one is rummaging through your session for your innovative routing techniques or mixing secrets. Award winning mixers upload their sessions on the daily. We can too.

No one from an sfx library is going to figure out where the sfx came from and hunt you down. No one is going to reuse some sound they found in a session. Who would wade through the mountain of material they get in a day to find some sound you recorded one day and steal it? They do it to make their lives easier when they need help with foreign deliverables. Your stem isn’t split off enough, or some such. Archiving purposes, so someone ten years down the road can sell this to someone else. This is work for hire, you’re not some tortured genius with some secret that’s going to get stolen. I emphatically include myself in this too, by the way.

I’m currently uploading my sessions to Netflix for a series just concluded. Next week I’ll probably have to do that for a feature on Hulu. Do it, get paid, and move on with your life. Clients will not be thrilled that you kicked up a fuss with their client (the streamer) and made their life even a tiny bit more annoying.
Nope.
Intellectual Property is just that. Intellectual Property. It doesn’t matter whether they might or might not use it, steal, borrow it, etc, etc. They simply don’t have a right to it unless you’re employed by them and clearly states as such under a signed contract.

It is certainly within your right to pass your sessions along but any clients I have worked have agreed on the side of the artist, not the streamer.

Since when can you walk into any Crate & Barrel, buy a dining room set, and then demand to know the builders tools and building plans along with it? Never.

People on this side of the fence need to hold their ground, otherwise creativity goes out the window and we’re just a bunch of monkeys pushing faders.
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  #23  
Old 04-07-2023, 08:56 PM
evanbenjamin evanbenjamin is offline
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Default Re: Deliver Mix Sessions to platforms Amazon / Netflix / ...

I don’t think my creativity derives from my template, or from how I EQed a scene. There is nothing particularly unique about that. My creativity derives from how I approach every situation, which is always different, and to the interaction between the needs of the project and the needs of my client.

If Crate and Barrel contracts with a designer to design a dining room set, you bet they’re getting every last blueprint, revision, sample, etc. You’re essentially claiming that if C&B asks for the designers pencils at the end of the job, they’ll never hire him again because they can easily design the next dining room set they need, and so he shouldn’t give them the pencils.

Besides, you’re doing a work for hire. Where’s the intellectual property? The secret of my dialogue chain? What reverb I used for the dream sequence? intellectual property refers to something that will cause you economic damage if taken from you. And I don’t think someone can take my template and do what I do. I’m not losing a job because I sent Netflix anything. But if you want to play the exalted artist card, you bet you’ll lose work. Imagine telling a post super that as an artist, you can’t send Netflix all the materials they expect to get. Imagine that post super calling you again.

Last edited by evanbenjamin; 04-07-2023 at 09:38 PM.
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  #24  
Old 04-08-2023, 10:41 AM
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nednednerb nednednerb is offline
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Default Re: Deliver Mix Sessions to platforms Amazon / Netflix / ...

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Originally Posted by evanbenjamin View Post
Besides, you’re doing a work for hire. Where’s the intellectual property? The secret of my dialogue chain? What reverb I used for the dream sequence? intellectual property refers to something that will cause you economic damage if taken from you.
"In general terms, intellectual property is any product of the human intellect that the law protects from unauthorized use by others. The ownership of intellectual property inherently creates a limited monopoly in the protected property." - Cornell University

will cause you economic damage represents one possible consequence, the one giving you harms monetarily. That's not all there is to it. It's way more basic. Even with a string of words, like 17 syllables, a haiku, it's all words that have existed for hundreds of years, but a unique haiku is totally intellectual property even if no one prints it on blocks and throws em at you to do damage!

Except that your comments are a hyperbole and miss the mark legally and even that basic definitions of concepts are getting skewed, I will respond no further.

Oh well.
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>> me: nednednerB //
||main gig: editing audio voiceovers & testing software | 2nd gig: music software tutoring | hobby: electronic music //
||software: Sonoma 14.2 | PT Studio 2023.12 | Ableton Live 11 | iZotope RX, Ozone, Neutron | Arturia Pigments | Auto-Tune | Dubler2 //
||system: iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2020) 10-Core-i9 | 128GB-DDR4 | 5700-XT-16GB | OWC Thunderbolt Hub and Thunderbolt 3 Dock //
||devices: RME Babyface Pro FS | Focusrite Clarett 2Pre | some AT mics | SM58 | Ableton Push 2 | Sennheiser HD 600 HP // Onkyo TX-8220 SR
||automation: SoundFlow | Stream Deck+ | Keyboard Maestro | SteerMouse | MacOS Shortcuts //
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  #25  
Old 04-09-2023, 10:20 AM
evanbenjamin evanbenjamin is offline
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Default Re: Deliver Mix Sessions to platforms Amazon / Netflix / ...

Some people get confused over what they think a phrase means because they’d like it to mean that, but what the phrase actually means in a legal sense is quite different.The rest of the very sentence you referenced lays out the 4 categories.

“In general terms, intellectual property is any product of the human intellect that the law protects from unauthorized use by others. The ownership of intellectual property inherently creates a limited monopoly in the protected property. Intellectual property is traditionally comprised of four categories: patent, copyright, trademark, and trade secrets”

Now, my template is not copy written, patented, trademarked. I suppose you could make the case it’s a trade secret, but most of us set up our sessions mostly the same way so that seems quite a stretch. I can’t imagine winning ownership of the idea of using a compressor in a dialogue chain in court.

The music is a work for hire, so is the foley. So are any original fx for the piece. The work is owned by the production company that paid you. What here is intellectual property? Some sfx from a library? If you look at the EULA for most libraries, you may distribute them as part of a synchcronized work, which is what this is. Those EULAs exist mostly so that no one copies the fx library wholesale and tries to sell it.
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  #26  
Old 04-09-2023, 12:50 PM
its2loud its2loud is offline
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Default Re: Deliver Mix Sessions to platforms Amazon / Netflix / ...

Quote:
If you look at the EULA for most libraries, you may distribute them as part of a synchcronized work, which is what this is. Those EULAs exist mostly so that no one copies the fx library wholesale and tries to sell it.
This is incorrect.


Only the first paragraph from the Sound Ideas user agreement

“ Limitations

Copyright infringement is a serious offence. Sound Ideas protects its copyright by all necessary means, including legal action. You are not authorized to:
Make copies of any of the unsynchronized recordings contained within our royalty free products, except as may be designated to a single stand alone workstation for the sole purpose of specific audio and / or visual synchronization at your own facility. You are only licensed to keep one copy of the audio content on one stand alone workstation at any given time unless otherwise directly licensed by Sound Ideas.”
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  #27  
Old 04-10-2023, 07:31 AM
colinato colinato is offline
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Default Re: Deliver Mix Sessions to platforms Amazon / Netflix / ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by its2loud View Post
This is incorrect.


Only the first paragraph from the Sound Ideas user agreement

“ Limitations

Copyright infringement is a serious offence. Sound Ideas protects its copyright by all necessary means, including legal action. You are not authorized to:
Make copies of any of the unsynchronized recordings contained within our royalty free products, except as may be designated to a single stand alone workstation for the sole purpose of specific audio and / or visual synchronization at your own facility. You are only licensed to keep one copy of the audio content on one stand alone workstation at any given time unless otherwise directly licensed by Sound Ideas.”
I think you are inferring a a lot from that. If you are truly concerned about violating something, I would contact your rep at whichever libraries and simply ask. I have a hard time believing they would prevent you from turning over your Pro Tools sessions.
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  #28  
Old 04-10-2023, 10:14 AM
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nednednerb nednednerb is offline
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Default Re: Deliver Mix Sessions to platforms Amazon / Netflix / ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by evanbenjamin View Post
I can’t imagine winning ownership of the idea of using a compressor in a dialogue chain in court.
Quote:
Originally Posted by colinato View Post
I have a hard time believing they would prevent you from turning over your Pro Tools sessions.
All I have to do is get some very very poorly hand painted M with yellow and red in the right hue, and the text "Drive Thru" - and I bet simply on the fact of potentially confusing someone, even approaching the likeness of a brand image would be enough for them to sue my apes off, or at least try, and me with no lawyer budget, why would I persist?

Sure, I can get away with it.. but that's not the same as an argument I haven't broken the law. As soon as I give someone else a session with an UNsynched ADDITIONAL copy of the audio file, I accept I have clearly and directly broken the agreement I made when purchasing and installing a library.

My points have not been about whether a compressor in a dialogue chain is set to RMS or Peak. I was primarily interested in the samples, while I acknowledge a mixer's secrets could travel with a mix session.

Courts have to determine if laws were broken, we are all presumed innocent until proven guilty (in the "Free World"), but that doesn't change the definition of "unsynchronized copy of an audio file in a mix session."

Sorry, but not sorry, "for getting confused over what a phrase means" because if you've ever witnessed a government or committee turn over the differences in their legislation or policy between the choice of "or we will" with "and if we can" or something, you'd get this. At first glance someone might say "oh it just doesn't matter" but someone else says "I interpret that this way."

It's not that you are all wrong for the rest of us being careful and saying "you might be breaking the law." It's just that if there WAS a question, these are the sorts of things a copyright case judge will be considering.

If you say "yah but it doesn't matter" and the lawyer for the sample library says "we have a clear agreement here", then I think it will matter less what you "think" than what the judge thinks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by colinato View Post
truly concerned about violating something, I would contact your rep at whichever libraries and simply ask.
This is indeed the right thing to do. Ask, check with a lawyer, look at similar precedents. But "hold one copy of a file unless you're printing your mix at a studio" does NOT mean one is free to send un-synced copies of samples in sessions anywhere. Stating it is absolutely clear based on a swift assumption is what some of the comments above look like they are doing. It's just wrong to assume, in legal matters. Getting opinions that say "it might be an issue in case A or B" is basically saying "someone might take you to court arguing A or B."

You might have to pay for lawyers "even though" you're "right."
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>> me: nednednerB //
||main gig: editing audio voiceovers & testing software | 2nd gig: music software tutoring | hobby: electronic music //
||software: Sonoma 14.2 | PT Studio 2023.12 | Ableton Live 11 | iZotope RX, Ozone, Neutron | Arturia Pigments | Auto-Tune | Dubler2 //
||system: iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2020) 10-Core-i9 | 128GB-DDR4 | 5700-XT-16GB | OWC Thunderbolt Hub and Thunderbolt 3 Dock //
||devices: RME Babyface Pro FS | Focusrite Clarett 2Pre | some AT mics | SM58 | Ableton Push 2 | Sennheiser HD 600 HP // Onkyo TX-8220 SR
||automation: SoundFlow | Stream Deck+ | Keyboard Maestro | SteerMouse | MacOS Shortcuts //

Last edited by nednednerb; 04-10-2023 at 10:27 AM.
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  #29  
Old 04-10-2023, 03:16 PM
evanbenjamin evanbenjamin is offline
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Default Re: Deliver Mix Sessions to platforms Amazon / Netflix / ...

If you read these EULAs, as I have, it is pretty obvious that their concern relates to the use of these as ringtones or toys. In other words, a situation in which you are using their sounds as single source entities. Having them in a film or TV show is expressly permitted. I can’t imagine handing over discrete files for use in distributing the TV show could be an issue. And I’m not worried about it. It is simply not within the scope of that EULA to imagine that use as one that contradicts the spirit of the agreement. They don’t want you to monetize their work, beyond using it in a synchronized work. I’m not doing that by handing over the mix session. I’m just allowing others to use my work in the most flexible way possible in the future if needed.
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  #30  
Old 04-10-2023, 05:36 PM
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nednednerb nednednerb is offline
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Default Re: Deliver Mix Sessions to platforms Amazon / Netflix / ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by evanbenjamin View Post
If you read these EULAs, as I have, it is pretty obvious that their concern relates to the use of these as ringtones or toys. In other words, a situation in which you are using their sounds as single source entities. Having them in a film or TV show is expressly permitted. I can’t imagine handing over discrete files for use in distributing the TV show could be an issue. And I’m not worried about it. It is simply not within the scope of that EULA to imagine that use as one that contradicts the spirit of the agreement. They don’t want you to monetize their work, beyond using it in a synchronized work. I’m not doing that by handing over the mix session. I’m just allowing others to use my work in the most flexible way possible in the future if needed.
I usually read the EULAs of new software, actually, and my opinion is it's obvious you have not, or heard much about all the intellectual property situations over the years in various courts in various countries. If you think each situation people are describing here as possible copyright infringement is obvious to dismiss, you're not understanding that judges decide these things, not your feelings.

1) Sample A is owned by The Sample Company Inc.
2) EULA says "only synchronized version is good, no raw sample."
3) Your mix session contains raw Sample A for Movie B by The Movie Movers Productions.
4) Giving your mix session to The Movie Movers Production 100% violates the EULA.
5) Many sampling library EULAs indeed talk about stems. It's obviously come up before, but the above stands.

Your perspective is random arm waving and gesturing in a world run by contract law.

Haha, the following is shared with only the remark that the important thing to what I am saying is that these cases went to a court almost or at all:
https://listverse.com/2018/07/15/top...ims-ever-made/
__________________
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>> me: nednednerB //
||main gig: editing audio voiceovers & testing software | 2nd gig: music software tutoring | hobby: electronic music //
||software: Sonoma 14.2 | PT Studio 2023.12 | Ableton Live 11 | iZotope RX, Ozone, Neutron | Arturia Pigments | Auto-Tune | Dubler2 //
||system: iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2020) 10-Core-i9 | 128GB-DDR4 | 5700-XT-16GB | OWC Thunderbolt Hub and Thunderbolt 3 Dock //
||devices: RME Babyface Pro FS | Focusrite Clarett 2Pre | some AT mics | SM58 | Ableton Push 2 | Sennheiser HD 600 HP // Onkyo TX-8220 SR
||automation: SoundFlow | Stream Deck+ | Keyboard Maestro | SteerMouse | MacOS Shortcuts //
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