Please Tell me that I am Kidding....

[danander11]

Originally Posted by liquidtools

I also have an mbox2 and protools 8 in front of me with the same 2 inputs and a featureless program. now why would I upgrade for 1500 bucks to 8 more inputs 003 just to use the same featureless program (in relation to logic)?

The 003 has 18 inputs.
8 on-board
8 via Optical
2 via SPDIF

[liquidtools]

Originally Posted by danander11

The 003 has 18 inputs.
8 on-board
8 via Optical
2 via SPDIF

awe yes your right sorry..18 really? wow cool.. but need I say it... and still a feature starved DAW.. they could put 3000 inputs in it still wouldnt make me upgrade past anything other then the mbox2 unless its to HD.. its like having a HOT chick with a big rack and no brains.. really awesome at first until you need her to do something...

I can only imagine the look on the peoples face that buy a 003 and then they find out

just kidding i know there are some really happy 003 users on here and 002 for that matter. just bustn on YO SAX

[alex s]

So... this is a bit OT but I thought I'd say:

I recently mixed a musical that had:

Medium sized Orchestra, Full Band, 20 chorus and 12 lead vocals,
SFX and more keyboard and Woodwind overdubs than you could shake a 32 bus SSL at. I had no part in the tracking which was hardly stellar.
The session I ended up with wouldn't open on my (quad core) HD 2 rig due to RTAS/voice allocation BS, nor my g5 HD3 because of lack of grunt.
I ended up doing it all on my mac pro 8 core LE rig.
Just about maxed out the 128 bus limit of the CPTK but the system usage was reading about 25%.
What does that tell you ? short of upgrading to a HD 3 I was in effect forced to use a more powerful native system to get the job done. Buying a (smaller sized) HD rig to sort out your problems is somewhat of a fallacy as limitations show themselves elsewhere. In certain circumstances (like mine) you'd have to be running at least an HD 3 to match performance.
Just to explain, every element had its own stereo bus to allow for quick adjustments (small and global) for the producer and to create stems at the end of the mix.
To agree with 25 Ghosts, some people use the equipment in ways that have not been considered by those who have not experienced certain professional demands. Any argument to the contrary does not hold water.

Don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins.. so to speak.

[Keybeeetsss]

Originally Posted by Barry Johns

The whole point is not about any one feature, but rather the excessive utilization of the features to cover up for many things in the process. A guy back mentioned 60 vocal tracks, you know what that means to me, you've either got a guy who can't sing, so it takes that many to get it right, the engineer does not understand punch in and automation, or the vision for the song is just out of control.

Michael Boddicker is an associate of mine(I'm sure with u being sorta of school as ur projecting, that u know who he is/& I mean that in the most innocent way) but anyway, he, along with Teddy Riley have both told me that Michael Jackson would use 70-100+ tracks sometimes for vocals... So he can't sing & his engineers are useless I guess; I have sessions all the time as I stated before with mannny vocal tracks.. Again, let me send u 1 of my gospel records & u use ur method that is so correct on it & see what the outcome is...

Originally Posted by SculliD

2 I want to understand why it's ok for you to state you want more busses and not ok for others to state they don't need them. Noone and I repeat noone has told you your way is wrong.
Kevin

Hey Kevin I'm going to assume that u have only read ur post & post that had quotes from u... check the quotes below...

The only time I've seen people doing it they've had really, really bad engineering technique.

I know you're good, so I'm curious what you're doing to use up all those busses

Sounds waaaaaay too complicated. Looks to me
What are you mixing, Queen's "Night At The Opera'?

How ridiculous spoiled we have become. Tell me 15 years ago, when anyone would have a system with 32 busses? I think if you need more than that, a person should re-think how they get the job done.

Originally Posted by Sardi

What about the guys that have to deal with 60+ vocal track mixes? They'd chew through a few stereo busses.

We can all be nostalgic about the past but more often than not we were talking hardware in regard to that period. In the software world, these kind of limitations seem rather silly. People don't buy plugins then only instantiate them once do they?

Rite; & again, just piggy backing on the 60+ tracks for vocs; I do a session, 15 tracks are usually live vocals; the u must do overdub/stacking which is @ least 3 times so say u have 6 mics set up for choir, thatz 6x3=18 plus the 15 which is 33 vocal tracks; Then there are the individual stacks; So say 6 singers, doing minimum 3 stacks, thatz another 18 vocal tracks putting the count to 51 vocal tracks; keep in mind this is minimum because some I do, have 6-10 stacks per... Now to the busses, each of those individual groups will be treated separately... the live choir is 1, the live mic singers is 2, the OD choir stacks are 3, the OD mic singers are 4; these are just busses for these groups; still have ur verbs, delays, etc. Now on to Live horn arrangements, & then string arrangements...


We always talk about PT being limited as far as track count but to me its enough simply because its wayyy more than we/they had 15-20 yrs ago(& I'm speaking of 100+ tracks) so why it is a big issue for a number of busses??? 15-20yrs ago u didn't have enough tracks to have 32 or more busses...

Originally Posted by liquidtools

Can somebody tell me wtf CPTK is?

I'm sure this may have been answered already because I've been searching & typing but its the Complete Production Toolkit...



edit: I see Danny answered it...

[liquidtools]

so if I get a hot chick with a big rack in Moccasins is that good?

[RaySoul]

This is a very good thread...

A lot of good points have been made, for and against the excess that is now available to us. Technique is the reason for any style that suits you. It can be defined as neither good or bad. It's stylistic. There was a time(and I learned most of what I know during this) that we were using 24 track analog tape machines. There was a time when we finally got to use digital tape machines that had 48 tracks, and cost $200,000.

Things have changed exponentially since then, as have the needs and techniques of the user. We use stereo busses a lot now, but we also have stereo tracks. Something we didn't have during the tape era, and required two mono tracks to achieve the same result. I'm currently using the MPTK in 7.4.2 and have a maximum of 48 (stereo)audio tracks, and so 32 busses is plenty for me. Especially since I RARELY actually use 48 tracks(which now also means 96 voices) in a recording. But again, I have always been able to make less sound like more. That's just me. Which brings me to a story similar to the Boys II Men story...


I was in a studio in the B room while two popular producers(guys I know well) were in the A room. At some point one of them came over to the B room to hang with me a while and we began to discuss technique. He was listening to a 2 track recording of what I was working on, after which I told him it was 24 tracks. He looked stunned and said, "THAT was only 24 tracks?" I was stunned at his confusion, and began to explain to him how I didn't understand why some people need so many tracks to achieve a certain result. By this time his partner had joined us and gotten caught up on the discussion. They both were very quiet and shared the same stunned look. They soon left, and told me to stop by the A room before I left for the evening, I said I would.

Well, I went over to the A room later and to my astonishment, they had three 24 track machines slaved together for the mix they were doing for a total of 72 tracks. I soon understood why they were stunned at me.

There is no right or wrong way to work. That's the beauty of creativity. You can have your own style as long as you get where you want to go. Some folks will always need more than 32 busses, especially if they use lots of tracks which many people do now. If that's what gets them what they need at the end of the day, that's what counts...

[liquidtools]

okay jsut got educated on the CPTK
So for 2 THOUSAND dollars I get LE versions? man Digi you out did your self on this one... and check it out I can even get an mp3 bounce to... Wow digi to the rescue..

Eleven LE ($395 value)
Structure LE ($149 value)
Smack! LE ($395 value)
Hybrid 1.5 ($249 value)
TL Space Native Edition ($495 value)
Digidesign X-Form ($495 value)
DINR LE ($495 value)

man im in a smart ***** mood today.. HELL YEAH...

[cakes]

I often run out of busses in the first 5 minutes of mixing. I mix score for film and TV, and composers need stems. Even for a session with only, say, 40 tracks, I often am splitting the final mix into 8 stereo stems (plus a full mix stem), each with its own stereo bus. Each stem has to have its own reverb/delay effects (on their own busses), otherwise one stem's effects will bleed into the others.

This is not "bad" mixing. This is what my clients demand.

cakes

[alex s]

Originally Posted by cakes

I often run out of busses in the first 5 minutes of mixing. I mix score for film and TV, and composers need stems. Even for a session with only, say, 40 tracks, I often am splitting the final mix into 8 stereo stems (plus a full mix stem), each with its own stereo bus. Each stem has to have its own reverb/delay effects (on their own busses), otherwise one stem's effects will bleed into the others.

This is not "bad" mixing. This is what my clients demand.

cakes

Out of interest, what system are you running ?

[Keybeeetsss]

Originally Posted by liquidtools

okay jsut got educated on the CPTK
So for 2 THOUSAND dollars I get LE versions? man Digi you out did your self on this one... and check it out I can even get an mp3 bounce to... Wow digi to the rescue..

Eleven LE ($395 value)
Structure LE ($149 value)
Smack! LE ($395 value)
Hybrid 1.5 ($249 value)
TL Space Native Edition ($495 value)
Digidesign X-Form ($495 value)
DINR LE ($495 value)

man im in a smart ***** mood today.. HELL YEAH...

The kit is mostly sought after for all the other functions that I guess u may have missed & not necessarily for the plugs which is what Danny & others meant when sayin that Digi should only sell the tracks/busses/session import without the plugs...