Just had to share this with the class

[Eric L]

The issue is that they promise a "professional certificate" as if it actually meant something.

It does mean "something" to the person earning the certificate. I suggest that it has almost as much real world value as a liberal arts university diploma (I have one and it never got me a job either), but that it's personal value is measured on a case by case basis. I felt more confident knowing that I had earned that degree and had some level of preparedness for the job market. I do not think it is important how the school markets itself, as long as they provide the adequate training for that level of education. In this case entry level. It is up to the student to take this training and actually do something with it. If they can use this certificate to "market" themselves into a job, then it was worth it.

When I was a touring engineer, we always hired the "Full Sail" grads over the "No Sail" grads. We knew that they had a basic understanding of what the job was. They always seemed to gather around my console. But they soon understood that they were years away from mixing. Their first responsibilities were always to learn a proper truck pack, how to figure eight wrap a 300' snake and/or feeder cable and how to pack the mic stands. Guaranteed that none of this was offered as a class at Full Sail. I found that one could rely on the dedication of a Full Sail grad more than another noobie, because they had much more time and money invested in their career.

I have more "professional certificates" than I know what to do with. Not all in sound related fields. I never took the classes for the cert. I went to learn something knew and I always did. Hell, even Universities have continuing education courses. You pay for the classes and all you receive is a certificate. But the value of the class is dependent on the students desire to learn and the teachers ability to teach. Mediocrity is slowly destroying our industry. We need more trained professionals, not less.

In both cases, the arrogance is amazing. Despite the fact that you have WAY more experience than them they somehow feel perfectly confident being dismissive of a great deal of what you're trying to teach them; they've annointed themselves experts of what they do and don't need to know.

I think this can be said to be true for all high school/freshman college students in any discipline. It is frustrating, yes. But it is also the job. Reaching out to students and helping them learn is an art form. Forcing them to comply with traditional production techniques is completely missing the point. Learning comes from experimentation, not lectures. Knowing the subject matter and knowing how to teach it are very different things. My father taught me that, as he has been teaching other teachers for decades.

Their whole concept of production is ridiculous, and they are impossible to teach. They don't think about the content of their shows, they don't plan anything and their shows are aesthetically clueless. I mean it's awful. They dismiss the most important aspects of production as unimportant.

This is where you come in. Teach them how to plan a shot list. Teach them how to break down a script. Show professional examples of similar work and break it down in class. Explain why Korn may not work for the intro. No student is impossible to teach. If they are in the class and have a genuine interest in the subject matter, they can be taught. It is your job to figure out how. They want to be in tv because it is fun. So make it fun! Isn't this why we are all in this business? I know I do it, because I have fun. Once it isn't fun anymore, it is time to change jobs. It sounds to me, that you are not having fun yourself. Could that be the problem? There are students in your class that desperately want to be taught. Do not abandon them. More importantly, do not treat them as adversaries.

The students who have a talent for this stuff, will learn and succeed. It is important that they have as many sources of information as possible. I think there needs to be more schools willing to share knowledge. I know that I train two to three interns everyday just in the usually day to day doings of sound post. Sometimes I wish they all had gone to a Pro Tools certification course first, so that I could spend more time teaching sound design and editing basics, rather than proper file management. There is a place for these schools in our industry. We should not dismiss their importance.

Nothing bothers me more, than an experienced pro, refusing to teach what they know for fear that they may be replaced some day.

Who cares what a school says in their marketing material? Where will all these new "professionals" find work? Where will all the classically trained opera singers find work? Where will all the film school grads find work. Where will the all the actors with BFA degrees find work?

It doesn't matter, really. The ones that do succeed will better society with their talents. Cream of the Crop. The rest will find their places somewhere else. Probably as film producers .

[MoreMeintheMonitors]

I'm not sure all education is good.

I think Mark Twain said it best:

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."

I remember distinctly being one of those dismissive students. Luckily I started to realize the mistake early on (mostly because of a very inspiring professor).

It's unfortunate that students like the ones you're describing don't recognize the value of what you're teaching until they've been out in the 'real world' a bit. I think a lot of it has to do with context - there's too little of it in most educational institutes.

[froyo]

Hello. Eric L I think you may have missed the point georgia and Matt Rouch amongst others were making. Maybe I did. I think what they were saying is that it's a parallel of what we have come to know as the 'democratization' of audio engineering. Basically anyone with $500 or so can buy an LE system and call themselves an audio engineer. They learn a couple of things here and there and display a very poor attitude towards anyone who may dare to teach them anything about real audio engineering skills and concepts.

Your point is well taken. Good teachers make good students. In any class, no matter what it is, a lot of students will have poor attitudes and refuse to be taught. Some students will try hard but maybe lack the talent to fully understand what is being taught. Only a small percentage will benefit fully with both an open minded attitude towards learning and some degree of talent on what is being taught. And good teachers are also hard to come by.

However I think the situation related here is much more specific and different than that general broad state of learning anything in any school. Today's technology has created an entire industry of so called 'professional' courses where students can learn to use Final Cut, Pro Tools, Avid Express, After Effects, Maya, etc and feel they can call themselves audio engineers, picture editors, graphic artists, etc.

On our side of the fence, as a begginner we knew we had to start as apprentices and work our way up through years of being an assistant before we were competent enough to venture out for ourselves, give or take a few years, each individual story is different. But the attitude was generally universally the same. We knew we had to pay our dues. This has definitely been replaced by the immediacy of buying $500 gear at Guitar Center, going to one of these 'professional' courses and being ready to be a professional. Screw humility and open mindedness, I have an Mbox and a Pro Tools course diploma, now give me my job and screw all you old squares with your old school ideas.

I think that was the point being made here. Maybe it was me that misunderstood it.

[Eric L]

Hi Froyo,
Thanks for your input. I do understand the point of their posts, but I may have wandered off topic a bit. I guess my point is that we can not blame the schools or the certification programs for the behavior of the students. This industry has a way of weeding out the hacks from the pros.

I am not concerned with some one getting an mbox and headphones and calling themselves a pro. It does not reflect on me or my abilities at all. In fact, the more of them out there, the better I look when I "save the project" for someone who has been burned. This has happened a few times for me.

Blaming the school for this kind of attitude, is like blaming law schools for bad legal representation.

You are correct, of course, when you say that the best way to learn is an apprenticeship and then being an assistant. My opinion is that the best situation would be a student getting the prerequisite training from a Certification course, then applying that knowledge in an internship. I would love our interns and assistants to have that kind of background training.

Had the original post been about a specific student who had received a certificate and then demanded a job, then I would not have responded as I did. But instead, the opinions seemed to question the credibility of a school and their promise of a professional certification from them. My point being...who cares? Why get so upset about it when it has no direct effect on you or your job. Anyone that comes into a job interview with the attitude that you describe, would of course not get the gig.

My point being that education is paramount, regardless of it's source.

FWIW, I stopped referring to myself as an audio "engineer" a few years back after I worked with a guy who had an electrical engineering degree and could take apart any piece of gear and fix it on site. He was also one of the best mixers I have ever heard. I realized that I had been "marketing" myself as an engineer, when in fact I was an "operator" or "mixer". I have an above average understanding of electricity and components, but I am no engineer.

Marketing is hype. It gets your attention. If it can be backed up, then it is acceptable. In the case of this school, they probably should not promise that "Graduating students will receive certification as a "DCTV Certified Post-Production Professional". It should probably promise instead that "all graduates will receive a Certificate of completion of post production training". The professional part should be left to the student to prove.

[Matt Rouch]

I think this can be said to be true for all high school/freshman college students in any discipline. It is frustrating, yes. But it is also the job. Reaching out to students and helping them learn is an art form. Forcing them to comply with traditional production techniques is completely missing the point.

What I'm talking about here are results, plain and simple. I don't force them to comply with traditional techniques, I'd just like to see any technique period. Before "high school television" I rarely had this problem. What high school television (and admittedly even some university programs) teach is, essentially, that production should be viewed as recreation, not as a profession. When their introduction to production is like this, it can be almost impossible unteach it because they badly want to believe you can make a good living doing something which is simple, requires little thought and is fun. All I'm trying to do is help them realize their dreams, but there's not much I can do to help them realize a fairy tale. If I didn't care, it wouldn't bother me.

This is where you come in. Teach them how to plan a shot list. Teach them how to break down a script. Show professional examples of similar work and break it down in class. Explain why Korn may not work for the intro.

But see, that's the point. This is exactly what I do that they ignore. They're not taking my class because they want to learn television production; they're taking it because it's a requirement for the degree. In their minds, like I said, they really believe they already know how to do television production and yet it's amazing how often they do the worst production in class. When they get bad grades, they either hallucinate some bias or dismiss the grading criteria as trivial. They honestly believe network shows look more professional because of the equipment and nothing else. The set design, the lighting, the blocking, the script, the editing, the audio, the scoring, the camera work, the special effects, the graphic design -- evidently a 150 thousand dollar television camera does all this stuff for you.

To be sure, they couldn't do anywhere close to a network show even if they did their best. I'm fine with that. I'm quite fine with something approaching small market commercial television and it may take their entire college career to get to that point. But what they don't realize is that network shows look professional mostly because of knowledge and people giving a lot of thought to planning and how they want the viewers to perceive the show. The expensive equipment is only a very small part of it.

I want to point out, the majority of my students are not like the ones I'm describing above. Moreover, it was about ten years ago that some high schools started to teach television, and at first I thought this would be a big plus. It's only the fact that it seems to make them unteachable that's driving my point here: that poor quality education can create problems. When these students go out in the real world, they're often shocked to find they can't land a job. It's hardly a surprise. They have crappy resume tapes that would demonstrate to any prospective employer that they still have a ways to go. When the highlight of your tape is a mediocre music video with poor camera work and non-existant lighting...

Learning comes from experimentation, not lectures.

Then there's really no point in having universities, is there? If all they need to do is experiment, there's no point in coming to college in the first place. And you know what? For a few rare exceptions it might really be a waste to go to college.

Personally, I learn lots of stuff from lectures and reading books and articles. Pro Tools is an excellent example. We got a TDM system here in 1998. I had never even used a DAW before and this is a small college town where there was no possibility of finding someone to teach me. I learned by reading the Pro Tools user guide. I did learn a few things through experimentation, but if I had tried to learn entirely from experimentation I honestly think it would have taken me forever. But look, even if the students were learning through experimentation, I'd honestly be fine with that. My problem is that they're not learning period because they don't think they need to. I don't mean they learn nothing at all from their hands-on experience, but I don't see progress in their work.

It sounds to me, that you are not having fun yourself.

I'll be honest, I rarely have fun when I do production. What I'm going for is the longer term reward -- to see the finished product and know I did everything I could to make it the best I could. That's not to say production is a drag; I'm often in a state of intense concentration which is almost Zen-like in my ability to block out other concerns. But "fun" during production? It's rare, and it's not why I do it. Pre-production can be sometimes be little fun because you can be a dreamer; post-production can sometimes be fun because it's all about you and your vision. But in television, production can be stressful and tedious. In the production phase itself, the wheels can easily come off the wagon if you drift from being focused and purposeful. It's very easy to have a train wreck

But I digress. My point, and I hope it's clear, is very simple: that not all education is good.

I think Mark Twain said it best:

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."

I remember distinctly being one of those dismissive students. Luckily I started to realize the mistake early on (mostly because of a very inspiring professor).

It's unfortunate that students like the ones you're describing don't recognize the value of what you're teaching until they've been out in the 'real world' a bit. I think a lot of it has to do with context - there's too little of it in most educational institutes.

Exactly. Well said. In fact, I'm an outspoken advocate of NOT coming to college immediately after high school. It's amazing what a single year in the real world --living on your own- can do. Amazing.

[Eric L]

Hey Matt,

First, please let me say that I have the utmost respect for anyone willing to teach. It takes great dedication and I commend you and others who educate. On re-reading my post, I admit I came across a bit preachy. For that, I apologize.

I think it was mainly in response to the tone of your post and your comments about students being impossible to teach. Obviously, you do not really feel this way, or you would not have dedicated your career to this endeavor.

That being said, there is not enough time to try to type out all that could be debated about this topic. I sense that there are some fundamental differences in opinion between us, and I respect that.

When I referred to experimentation, I should have said "practical application". I learned many things in lectures. But I truly committed them to memory once I applied this new found information in the tv studio and edit bays of my university. And the lessons that I remember most vividly, were the ones learned by trying something only to have it blow up in my face.

Then there's really no point in having universities, is there? If all they need to do is experiment, there's no point in coming to college in the first place. And you know what? For a few rare exceptions it might really be a waste to go to college

As far as tv or film production goes, I agree 100%. Attending a four year university for tv production is a waste of time and money. I do not envy your position. Teaching a required course is very difficult. Especially when the students show no interest. Another reason why a specialized Certification course is better suited for teaching a specific trade (ie Pro Tools operation) At least the teachers there know the students want to learn the subject matter.

I am sorry to hear that you do not have any fun during production. For me, it is one of the most exciting places to be. I've mixed concerts in front of 30,000+ people, mixed sound for live tv, did live radio remotes, worked on film sets and now mix in post. I had fun doing all of it. It is hard work and can be stressfull at times. But it is always fun. I just put it in perspective. I could be digging a ditch somewhere or washing dishes. Or worse, wearing a suit to the office everyday.

Maybe if you had more fun with the subject matter, your students would notice and respond differently. I don't know. I do not want to pretend I know what your situation is like. I'm sure you are doing the best you can in a very difficult position. It is a shame that a few students will miss out on what you have to offer them. That is something they will have to reconcile someday. Just think of the eager students you can reach.

I can think of nothing more rewarding as seeing them succeed. I suppose it must be equally discouraging watching those few students refuse to try.

All I'm trying to do is help them realize their dreams, but there's not much I can do to help them realize a fairy tale. If I didn't care, it wouldn't bother me.

I did not mean to imply that you did not care. It is evident that you do. If you didn't, you would not be so frustrated with their lack of interest. I wish you luck and hope that you find some happiness in the moments that you do reach students. They deserve your best, even the ones that don't know what's good for them yet.

[KK Proffitt]

I am more bothered by the posters for Pro Tools training that are hanging in every other subway car. Where are all these newly trained experts going to work?

I have no idea, but I get several résumés a day from people who want to "help me go to the next level" when I hire them so they can "further their career goals and passion for recording music".

Whatever the hell that means...

[len branville]

A little off topic but.. It reminds me of back (way back) when I was attending a local community college before I went on to a local university. I was carrying around my nylon string classical guitar when another student approached me and said "oh your taking guitar with Mr. J" and I said yes I am. He said "I did for a semester but I quit Mr. J because he can't teach me anything other (or more) than what I already know". Come to find out this kid knew some basic chords and a couple Jimi Hendrix riffs and therefore thought he was "da-bomb". What a joke. I can't help but laughing even all these years later when I think about it. This professor had a couple graduate degrees in classical guitar and composition. This guy could play extremely difficult classical guitar scores and, as you can imagine, had chops that were simply amazing. Yet this kid... I'm sure after a few years of maturation he realized.. or maybe he didn't.. which is a scary thought for a lot of reasons in life other than music.

len

[TVPostSound]

Camera positioning? Who cares.
Shot framing? Doesn't matter.
Composition? "We never worried about that in high school."
Rundown sheets? Pain in the neck. Just make it up as you go along.
Contrast ratio? Rule of thirds? Just academic nonsense.
Music choice? What they think is cool, not what is aesthetically appropriate. Anything by Korn is the perfect music to open a newscast, right?
Font choice? Whatever looks "cute." How about Hot Dog for a talk show about the Holocaust? I am not making this up.
Levels don't matter, as long as you can hear the person talking, right?
Lighting kits are heavy and too troublesome to set up. Besides, they can see the person in their viewfinder, so what's the big deal?

Oh, they now call that "MTV Style"

[Matt Rouch]

As far as tv or film production goes, I agree 100%. Attending a four year university for tv production is a waste of time and money.

Uh, no, that wasn't what I was saying. If I thought that, I wouldn't be doing what I do. It would be a pointless life, and there are options open to me that would pay several times my university salary. Most of the people working higher up in production have college degrees, especially the producers and directors. If you mean it would be for you, that's different. Like I said, I can see for a few people, especially if they can't effectively learn in a structured situation like a college course, that it would be pointless. They might as well learn entirely through experience, and I have no problem with that whatsoever.

My point, all along, goes back to the original post by georgia: people being led to believe they have more market value than they actually have because they've been educated to believe this.

I guess the best metaphor I can draw is this:

Suppose you have somebody who is pretty close to functionally illiterate. They can barely fill out a simple job application. Then, they learn Microsoft Word, and they get to know it fairly well. They know how to change font sizes and colors, how to copy and paste, how to create columns and insert picture and graphic files. Now, as far as they're concerned, they are "writers." Their english and grammar are still horrible and some of the stuff they write is almost indecipherable. Yet they ignore any suggestion that they don't yet have a grasp of the basics. They really want to believe that because they click stuff in a software program they've figured it all out.

THAT'S what I'm talking about. THAT'S the problem created by high school television. THAT'S what I mean when I talk about how some education is counterproductive.

And remember, I'm not talking about the majority of students here. I get the impression you thought I was talking about all the students I have because my post doesn't go into detail about my many success stories. I was not. I was talking only about the ones who have had high school television. They start out freshman year and they're ahead of everybody else, but by the time senior year rolls around they're at the bottom of the pile. They haven't progressed. The ones who didn't have high school television, by contrast, are usually marketable. When this happens time and time and time again, you realize high school television has had a very detrimental impact. They should have taken off like rockets in college but they stagnated because they thought they didn't need to learn anything.

This is a minority of students. Maybe a fourth of the students I get. And the frustrating thing is that most are quite enthusiastic about production. But they want to believe there's no more work to do -- that they've climbed the learning curve and they just need to bide their time for four years waiting for the fame and fortune that surely await them in the real world. These are the kinds of people you almost never hear from again. They end up selling insurance (nothing wrong with that -- pays more than my job!) or running the A/V department for a public school or something like that. It didn't have to be that way.

Eric, if you can imagine this: you are asked to teach audio post as an adjunct at, say, Cal State Northridge. Here you are, a certified CAS pro working in the heart of it all in Burbank. Yet your students ignore what you have to teach because they naively believe you can't teach them anything worthwhile. Could you teach them new stuff? Stuff they've never heard about before? Absolutely. But because they have a little previous experience with Pro Tools, and were given the impression that they knew everything necessary to do post, they think all that stuff doesn't really matter. See what I mean? What would you think of the previous education they'd been given?

Maybe if you had more fun with the subject matter, your students would notice and respond differently.

Oh I have plenty of fun with the subject matter. I thought you were referring specifically to the production stage. Frankly, I think I'm pretty normal as far as that goes. Directing is different than mixing audio. You are under pressure to execute a plan and a vision; you are under pressure to solve unexpected problems quickly and you have to deal with many different flavors of human personality. And you can't just focus on a single area (e.g.: lighting, set, blocking, audio, camera position and framing, etc.) you have to deal with every area. The artistic phase comes before production and after it. During production you are really more of a manager. You have to be. That's why planning is so critical.

That being said, there is not enough time to try to type out all that could be debated about this topic.

You're right about that! We probably both need to get back to work.