Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > Legacy Products > 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-28-2006, 06:30 AM
JohnnyW JohnnyW is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 15
Default Recording Acoustic Drums. What is an ideal setup?

I just got a 7pac of Samson Q drum mikes in yesterday. I'm sure they aren't the best mics but I'm hoping they will get me close to what I want to achieve for the money. So, I got the kit hooked up and plugged all the mics into an 8 channel Soundcraft mixing board and I took the mono out of it and jammed it into an input on the 002. I got all the levels pretty even and banged out a little beat. Sounded pretty good, not too bad. I tried messing around with the eq on each channel to sweeten up the set a bit but. eh, still sounds dry and pretty much reminded me of when I was 16 and we used to record our band practices in the garage with a ghetto blaster. So, since I just also today installed the PT7 upgrade I tried to grab an EQ from the audio suite, the 7band. I got it to sound a bit better but I don't know if I'm going in the right direction with this set up. Actually, I found it odd that I had to do the recording and apply the effect to it afterwards instead of applying it to the input signal. Yep, I'm so used to all the VST effects and the such that I used with Sonar 5. I'm not familiar at all with any of the pro tools effects that came with 7.

Are you pleased with the recordings of your acoustic drum set up? What techniques do you suggest and what gear do you use to achieve it?

If I could just make my drum recordings sound like Mike Portnoys kit (Dream Theater) I would be pleased.

Go Seahawks!
__________________
AMD dualcore 4800. Asus premium, 2Gs, 80G Maxtor, 250G WD 3.0G/s. Triton and Pod Rack. Midisport 8x8. Samson 16 rack.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-28-2006, 07:31 AM
lemix's Avatar
lemix lemix is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 10,894
Default Re: Recording Acoustic Drums. What is an ideal setup?

Johnny,
This could be a big topic, deeper than a simple answer can get into. Someone will surely write a novel about it..
BUT, for starters;
You have an 002, with 4 microphone pre amps, and an additional four line inputs, without any external converters.
I'd suggest to put the bass drum/snare and overhead mics into inputs 1>4 of the 002 directly. Then, if you have tom, room, etc mics..run those trough the Soundcraft and take direct/insert outs to line ins 4>8. If there is only a left/right master out on the board, pan the mics accordingly and just feed the two board outs to inputs 5 & 6 on the 002.
This way you'll be a step closer to achieve your goal. Your drums will be individually accessible !
I wouldn't worry too much about EQ's and effects until the basic sound of the drums is captured.
hope this helps..
happy tooling,
__________________
cheers,
Andrew


W7 pro 64_i7 3930K_16GB_ Nuendo 6.5.4-7.1.3 / PT 12.4 ------Mac Mini OSX Lion_PT 10.xx
Allen&Heath GS R-24M_ full rack of vintage analog boxes _UAD2_Nugen_iZotope_Melda_Waves_Plugin Alliance_DMG and more
2.0 and 5.1 monitoring
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-30-2006, 09:23 AM
albee1952 albee1952 is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Norwich, CT
Posts: 37,072
Default Re: Recording Acoustic Drums. What is an ideal setup?

With cheap mics, the more leeway you can give yourself, the better. Best would be to track as many individual things as you can. Does the SOundcraft board have direct outs or insert jacks on each channel? If so, you can track 8 channels into your 002 which will give you a lot of freedom when it comes to mixing. Just patch direct outs to the line inputs of the 002. If you only have insert jacks, you may just get away with plugging unbalanced cables from there to the 002(keep them under 10' in length). If you get no signal to the 002 with the plugs all the way in on the insert jacks, try pulling the plugs out one click. Using the insert jacks will interrupt the signal from going to the mixer outputs but that's okay as it eliminates some of the circuitry.
__________________
Gigabyte X79/intel i7 3930K, 32GB RAM, HD/Native, 192 IO
https://www.facebook.com/search/top/...0sound%20works


The better I drink, the more I mix

BTW, my name is Dave, but most people call me.........................Dave
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-30-2006, 01:11 PM
Petander Petander is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 297
Default Re: Recording Acoustic Drums. What is an ideal setup?

A lovely topic.


You want individual tracks for all the drums, just in case you need them. Then you want overheads and a some room mics,the room mics are really useful in this otherwise digital era. Use the room, it´s a unique space after all, whatever room it is.


Considering your 002, I have used a very, very "wrong" technique with a 002 every now and then... you can use the line inputs for many dynamic mics quite successfully, say, BD and SN. Yeah I know this is wrong. But I have done that many times because the phantom power was needed for condensers that were used for OH and room mics. If the drummer has a good balance I usually don´t need the separate tom tracks at all, by the way... and if I do, I copy the toms from the stereo overhead track to a new "toms" -track and process them. I have wiped a bunch of tom tracks away many times.


Forget the Soundcraft, record as pure signals as you can get without any "mixers" in there. Say, BD, SN and two toms with dynamic mics into 002 ch 5-8. Then OH as a stereo pair with condensers and two room mics (one can be in the next room if the door is open) , using the mic input channels because you need phantom power for those mics, usually. You really want those room mics.


Recorded that way , when Mike Portnoy comes to play , it will sound like Dream Theater.



Good luck - and please remember, this is only about recording the drums. Processing and mixing is another story but you want a pure signal to start with.
__________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------

- i7 520 @ 3.6 GHz / P6T / XP32 / PTLE 8.01 . PT9 on Snow .
- PTLE8 on a macbook.

- And a bunch of miscellaneous obsolete hardware from the past. Like Mix ++++ 64 i/o with Control/24


I`m In The Band: www.ozofficial.com
My guitars are in tune : http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-30-2006, 04:14 PM
GothicV GothicV is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver Canada
Posts: 654
Default Re: Recording Acoustic Drums. What is an ideal setup?

I also suggest using some reverb on some channels. I typically make two reverbs: One mono, the other stereo. I run a send from the snare[s?] to the reverb and have it lasting generally until about the next snare hit [like a two-beat decay time or so... of course this changes from song to song, but is a good way to start]. I run the overheads or rooms into the stereo 'verb and if I want that big 80's sound I will do the toms as well.

Occasionally I will roll off some lows on the overheads if the bass becomes excessive, and of course the almost obligatory flipping of the phase for the bottom snare mic if used.

Another thing I will do is buss all drums and drum reverbs to a stereo aux track and then I can pan the drums as wide as I need on the drum channels; if I end up needing more space for my mix, you can just bring in the aux faders a bit... I usually end up with them at <65> either side or so. A cool trick is to leave the stereo reverb even more stereo than the drum kit for a *kit in a big-ass-room* sound.

I will leave compression up to you as it is totally style-dependant... but I will suggest trying out the drum presets of any different compressor plugz you have, they are a good starting point.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-01-2006, 05:51 AM
JohnnyW JohnnyW is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 15
Default Re: Recording Acoustic Drums. What is an ideal setup?

OK, This is what I'm getting from what you told me. Yes, The soundcraft is going back to the garage. It's in the way and I don't want to have to use it if I can help it. I was using a condencer mic to mic the hi hat. I've seen many hi hats miced up before. Now, I'm realizing that I have other cymbals that I'd like to hear so what I'm going to try to do is just let them hang from the ceiling and capture the hats, crash with one and the ride and other crash with the other. Into Mic/inst 1 and 2. Right? They need the Phantom. I only have 2 condencer mics. Maybe I should use the 2 remaining 3 and 4 for the BD and SN since they are the most used drums? Then, fill the rest of the toms on 5-8 perhaps. ( I don't see why the 002 couldn't have more inputs for things like drums and various line instruents like synths and guitar processors without having to plug and unplug when you need to use something else. Heck, it could at least have 3 midi outs too) but what can you do. They don't by chance make a Y adapter for XLR cable inputs? That way you could sum a pair of toms into one input. I'll experiment with your suggestion and see if I can get something quality out of it. I did however lay down a few drum tracks that weren't awful. I added some reverb to the SN and BD with a litte bit of EQ for the BD to give it a little more boom instead of thud.

As always, if it weren't for some of you. There wouldn't be a fourum! Hopefully, one day I'll be able to pass the wealth of knowlede I've been givin here on. So, Thanks Again for taking the time to read this crap and reply.

Conan O'Brian Rules! Finlands Pres was reelected eh?
__________________
AMD dualcore 4800. Asus premium, 2Gs, 80G Maxtor, 250G WD 3.0G/s. Triton and Pod Rack. Midisport 8x8. Samson 16 rack.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-01-2006, 08:05 AM
Naagzh Naagzh is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,175
Default Re: Recording Acoustic Drums. What is an ideal setup?

Hang on there, JohnnyW!

You really ought to use that Soundcraft! Here's why: a mic passes only a low, microphone-level signal, too low to be recorded properly. A microphone preamplifier is required to bring the level of that signal up (to "line-level"), so that it is strong enough to record. Your 002 has 4 mic preamplifiers (mic pres) on inputs 1-4. They're connected to the XLR inputs, so you can plug mics directly into these inputs. Conversely, inputs 5 thru 8 are line-level, so in order to properly deliver a mic's signal to one of these inputs, an external mic pre should be used.

Lucky for you, you have some external mic pres within your Soundcraft board. Each channel on the board that has an XLR input has a mic pre. You will undoubtedly want to send each channel's signal from the board into one of the 002's line-level inputs, so that you have each mic's signal on its own audio track w/in PT. You can do this by taking a channel's signal directly out from the board, but how you do this depends on the features of the board.

It's likely there are insert jacks for each channel of the board. Normally these would be used to send a channel's signal to an effects processor, but you can use them to send the signal (which has been brought to line-level by the mic pre) directly into a line-level input on the 002. Read the board's manual to find out whether the jack's output is balanced or unbalanced, and use the appropriate cable. (Albee is probably correct in advising short, unbalanced cables.)

Your Y-adapter trick will not work (mixers, not cables, are for combining signals), and could damage your gear. Don't try it!

What you're suggesting for the overheads is called a spaced-pair configuration, and is quite common. Other overhead micing techniques include X-Y, ORTF, and the Glynn Johns method. For a spaced pair setup, I recommend getting the overhead mics to be both at the same height and the same distance from the center of the snare drum. That way, when you pan the signals left and right, the snare stays in the middle.

Some on this board will argue that you can get a good signal from a mic without using a mic pre. They're right, but the sound is thin and weak. You might get away with this on a tom track, but probably not a kick or snare.

But now that you have each mic's signal on its own track, play around with EQ plugs! This is a great time to train your ears. Make boost and sweep it around, find out what frequencies contain what you like, and what you don't. Then boost or cut accordingly. The standard caveat applies: less is more.

Try compressing the snare drum track. Or, copy the snare track to a new track, compress the crap out of it, and sneak it back in under the original track. Research the NY parallel compression trick.

Within PT, try leaving the snare and bass drum "dry". Instead, send the overheads to a stereo aux track with reverb. Try out the medium room 2 setting. Try sending the toms to this reverb, too, just to hear what happens. If the snare needs it, send it to this reverb, or its own, or both! Generally, though, less 'verb equals more realism. Reverb on the bass drum usu. muddies up the low end, IMO.

Have fun, and hope this helped,
Naagzh
__________________
002R PT7.3.1
MacBook Pro 2.33
OS 10.4.8
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:37 AM
Petander Petander is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 297
Default Re: Recording Acoustic Drums. What is an ideal setup?

Quote:


Some on this board will argue that you can get a good signal from a mic without using a mic pre. They're right, but the sound is thin and weak. You might get away with this on a tom track, but probably not a kick or snare.


Yep I´m all in for good preamps. My suggestion to use some 002 line inputs for dynamic mics was partially to save the original poster from some extra hassle in the first place. He wants some basic drum recording info as far as I understand, he can add the mixer later on when the basics are covered.

So, back to the basics:


Stereo overheads will record your cymbals and HH , no need to mike the cymbals separately. Use condensers for OH. Then add a BD and a SN mike. That should already get you somewhere, four mikes can record a good ,balanced drummer very well. You can dig the toms (and even the SN net) out of the copied OH tracks later if needed... ahh, this was about recording the drums,not editing, yes.


Mike the room as well. You may need it later on,all sound is about moving air anyway.


And with all the respect to Naagzh : A 112 for BD and a 421 for SN can give acceptable sound quality and levels plugged right into a 002R line inputs at -10. I often use those mics and I just checked an "unorthodox" recording of mine,those mics going to line in 002R. No problems. I repeat I know this is not the "right way". But it works, I have done my homework on wrong connections since I started recording drums on two c-cassette decks (Ping-Pong) in the -70`s when I was young and handsome. Now I´m only handsome - and still making cables.


To the original poster:

Just keep your mic setup simple for the starters, no matter what you do. I hope I´m not confusing you too much now, recording drums is fun after all.
__________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------

- i7 520 @ 3.6 GHz / P6T / XP32 / PTLE 8.01 . PT9 on Snow .
- PTLE8 on a macbook.

- And a bunch of miscellaneous obsolete hardware from the past. Like Mix ++++ 64 i/o with Control/24


I`m In The Band: www.ozofficial.com
My guitars are in tune : http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-01-2006, 11:54 AM
Naagzh Naagzh is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,175
Default Re: Recording Acoustic Drums. What is an ideal setup?

Quote:
And with all the respect to Naagzh : A 112 for BD and a 421 for SN can give acceptable sound quality and levels plugged right into a 002R line inputs at -10. I often use those mics and I just checked an "unorthodox" recording of mine,those mics going to line in 002R. No problems. I repeat I know this is not the "right way". But it works, I have done my homework on wrong connections since I started recording drums on two c-cassette decks (Ping-Pong) in the -70`s when I was young and handsome. Now I´m only handsome - and still making cables.
Hee hee!

Nothing wrong with experimentation, but I bet the line-in approach would expose those samson mics more than they would a D112 or 421. Given the same equipment, I'd also bet Mike Portnoy's engineer would use that mixer.

On the room mic thing: if JW is in a cool-sounding room, then yeah, go for it. But JW wants "Dream Theater", and I think that judicious use of room reverb on the overheads will get him closer than room mics (assuming JW is in a small room with lots of carpet and low ceilings). Also, only 7 mics to go around.

JW - one more thing (man, are you sick of us yet?! ): before you do anything to your overheads w/in PT, buss them to a stereo aux track, and then apply EQ and comp and whatnot on that stereo aux track. This way, you'll be treating the overheads more as a stereo pair and less as a multi-mono pair. Get it? Whatever happens to one side of the overheads happens to the other, and vice versa. Scenario A: A loud cymbal crash on the left triggers a compressor plug on one of the overheads. Result? one overhead mic is compressed, the other is not, and now you have uneven levels in your overhead tracks, smearing the left-to-right image of the drumset. Scenario B: A loud cymbal crash on the left triggers a stereo compressor plug on both overheads. Result? BOTH overhead signals are compressed, and the stereo image is maintained.

2-channel preamps with a stereo link are made for this!

AAAARRRRGGGGHHH! One LAST thing!

Try this out: On your overhead stereo aux, place a (stereo) reverb first in the plug-in chain (~35% wet, room setting). This is probably the only time I'd ever use a reverb on anything other than 100% wet, but it worked wonders for me recently. Think about it: by placing the reverb first, you're giving the impression of a larger, better room to any subsequent EQs, comps, etc. That's what the big boys do with their gear, except they start out with a larger, better room!

Please, I'm NOT implying that D-verb's Room Setting would ever compare to tracking at Ocean Way, just suggesting a way to fake it well. If anyone else has a tip like this, please share!
__________________
002R PT7.3.1
MacBook Pro 2.33
OS 10.4.8
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-01-2006, 01:30 PM
Petander Petander is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 297
Default Re: Recording Acoustic Drums. What is an ideal setup?

Quote:


Try this out: On your overhead stereo aux, place a (stereo) reverb first in the plug-in chain (~35% wet, room setting). This is probably the only time I'd ever use a reverb on anything other than 100% wet, but it worked wonders for me recently. Think about it: by placing the reverb first, you're giving the impression of a larger, better room to any subsequent EQs, comps, etc. That's what the big boys do with their gear, except they start out with a larger, better room!

Please, I'm NOT implying that D-verb's Room Setting would ever compare to tracking at Ocean Way, just suggesting a way to fake it well. If anyone else has a tip like this, please share!



A nice reverb tip,thanks Naagzh.



Back to recording: JW, also experiment with mic placement. Small moves can make huge changes.


And now back to mixing tips... ... this thread will definitely go somewhere.


Make a duplicate of that stereo OH audio track. Compress it and inset a gate/expander. Feed the gate´s "sidechain in" from BD and/or SN tracks via a buss, so that the gate only opens fully when BD or SN is being hit. Play around with the expander settings to make the new room track "pump" a little with the rest of the kit.


Room tracks treated like this can replace digital reverbs quite nice sometimes. You just drive your room tracks with the drums, using expanders and compressors to control them. This road has no end,I feel.


Also:Try moving those processed, duplicated room / OH tracks back and forth in time. Very efficient.


And the last: if your room is not good ( define good? ),leave a door open and mike the next room.
__________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------

- i7 520 @ 3.6 GHz / P6T / XP32 / PTLE 8.01 . PT9 on Snow .
- PTLE8 on a macbook.

- And a bunch of miscellaneous obsolete hardware from the past. Like Mix ++++ 64 i/o with Control/24


I`m In The Band: www.ozofficial.com
My guitars are in tune : http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Adding MIDI drums to acoustic drums - Velocity Pat.m Pro Tools 11 5 11-01-2013 08:40 PM
RECORDING ACOUSTIC DRUMS W/7 MICS? dw drummer Pro Tools M-Powered (Win) 17 01-04-2006 05:08 AM
recording drums setup need advice! shynomi 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 8 07-26-2005 09:38 AM
Ideal Setup PRS4LIFE 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 1 10-08-2003 05:15 PM
ideal mac setup...? DChung 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 4 10-05-2000 08:35 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:54 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com