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  #11  
Old 06-25-2013, 04:49 PM
thepresident777 thepresident777 is offline
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Default Re: Microphone Emulators

Quote:
Originally Posted by nst7 View Post
I see. But amp sims are designed for recording and live use, not auditioning amps. And 99% of the time the configuration used is a mic a couple of inches off the speaker.

If you wanted to simulate an amp in a room, you could experiment with reverb and the wet/dry mix, simulating being farther away.

Also, some amp sims have a simulation of moving the mic away from the cab further in the room, such as Amplitube and Guitar Rig.

And, if you choose the Ribbon 121, it gives a sense of that as well, even though it's close up to the speaker. This is part of the reason they are popular to use on cabs, in combination with other mics.
You are missing the point. You can't make those choices for me. I will not let you. I will not give you my money for it.
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  #12  
Old 06-25-2013, 04:51 PM
thepresident777 thepresident777 is offline
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Default Re: Microphone Emulators

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Originally Posted by christophersad View Post
well,an amp sim doesnt go to the shop to audition an amp,cause he actually doesnt have ears,he in fact uses a mic for earing
Exactly, I already have a pair of mics. I don't need another.
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  #13  
Old 06-25-2013, 05:03 PM
TieDyedDevil TieDyedDevil is offline
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Default Re: Microphone Emulators

There are, I think, some real perceptual problems to be overcome in emulating the "amp in the room" experience. Key among them would be (just off the top of my head):

1) the patterns of reinforcement and cancellation that arise from things like multiple drivers (2x12, 4x12, 3x10, etc.)

2) the patterns of reinforcement and cancellation that arise from open-back cabinets

3) the patterns of radiated sound that come from resonating cabinet surfaces rather than the speakers (particularly important, I'd guess, with stacatto playing technique, high gain and closed-back cabinets)

4) the variations in perceived response from the player's moving about the room relative to the cabinet

5) the sheer volume of and amount of air moved by a pushed tube amp is pretty darned impressive; it takes a lot of power and driver surface to match that with a powered speaker.

There's more, I'm sure...

The final point may or may not apply. I get the impression that some players buy a couple of studio monitors (designed for an optimal listening level at around 85 to 90 dB) and wonder why they don't have the impact of a 50- or 100-watt tube amp driving a 4x12 (easily in the 105 dB to 115 dB range). A lot of the experience - I think - is simply the application of "brute force" to one's sensory apparatus.

As for the other four points: the physics of the speaker(s) and cabinet *probably* color our perceptions in non-obvious ways. I say *probably* because I'm not aware that anyone has studied these effects in a rigorous manner (especially on the psychoacoustic side; the physics is pretty much unimpeachable), much less attempted to model the effects (assuming that they really *do* contribute to the "amp in the room" experience).

Here's another way of looking at this: Emulating a Leslie speaker is *really* difficult. The *best* emulators *still* sound like a mic'd Leslie. There's literally nothing that can compare to standing a few feet from a well-maintained Leslie speaker while putting it through its paces. (Believe me: I used to play through a Leslie 147; I've also played darned near every Leslie emulator on the market.)

The tradeoff remains, though... The player - being in close proximity to the cabinet - gets the full effect. But everyone else - the people in the audience or the people listening to a recording of you doing your thing - hears either the far-field response patterns or the mic'd close-up version of the sound. No matter how you slice it, your audience *always* hears something different than you do.

If you really like the sound of a modeler driving a tube power amp and a guitar cab, there are ways to do it. The Eleven Rack is probably not your best vehicle for this approach.
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  #14  
Old 06-25-2013, 05:04 PM
TieDyedDevil TieDyedDevil is offline
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Default Re: Microphone Emulators

Quote:
Originally Posted by thepresident777 View Post
You are missing the point. You can't make those choices for me. I will not let you. I will not give you my money for it.
Then you're looking in the wrong place. The Eleven Rack is not designed to do what you'd like it to do.
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  #15  
Old 06-26-2013, 03:52 AM
thepresident777 thepresident777 is offline
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Default Re: Microphone Emulators

Quote:
Originally Posted by TieDyedDevil View Post
Then you're looking in the wrong place. The Eleven Rack is not designed to do what you'd like it to do.
I agree. What I do not agree with is the justification for forced mic emulation. It's fabricated. But, avid is free to not create products for people like me regardless of the justification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TieDyedDevil View Post
There are, I think, some real perceptual problems to be overcome in emulating the "amp in the room" experience. Key among them would be (just off the top of my head):

1) the patterns of reinforcement and cancellation that arise from things like multiple drivers (2x12, 4x12, 3x10, etc.)

2) the patterns of reinforcement and cancellation that arise from open-back cabinets

3) the patterns of radiated sound that come from resonating cabinet surfaces rather than the speakers (particularly important, I'd guess, with stacatto playing technique, high gain and closed-back cabinets)

4) the variations in perceived response from the player's moving about the room relative to the cabinet

5) the sheer volume of and amount of air moved by a pushed tube amp is pretty darned impressive; it takes a lot of power and driver surface to match that with a powered speaker.

There's more, I'm sure...

The final point may or may not apply. I get the impression that some players buy a couple of studio monitors (designed for an optimal listening level at around 85 to 90 dB) and wonder why they don't have the impact of a 50- or 100-watt tube amp driving a 4x12 (easily in the 105 dB to 115 dB range). A lot of the experience - I think - is simply the application of "brute force" to one's sensory apparatus.

As for the other four points: the physics of the speaker(s) and cabinet *probably* color our perceptions in non-obvious ways. I say *probably* because I'm not aware that anyone has studied these effects in a rigorous manner (especially on the psychoacoustic side; the physics is pretty much unimpeachable), much less attempted to model the effects (assuming that they really *do* contribute to the "amp in the room" experience).

Here's another way of looking at this: Emulating a Leslie speaker is *really* difficult. The *best* emulators *still* sound like a mic'd Leslie. There's literally nothing that can compare to standing a few feet from a well-maintained Leslie speaker while putting it through its paces. (Believe me: I used to play through a Leslie 147; I've also played darned near every Leslie emulator on the market.)

The tradeoff remains, though... The player - being in close proximity to the cabinet - gets the full effect. But everyone else - the people in the audience or the people listening to a recording of you doing your thing - hears either the far-field response patterns or the mic'd close-up version of the sound. No matter how you slice it, your audience *always* hears something different than you do.

If you really like the sound of a modeler driving a tube power amp and a guitar cab, there are ways to do it. The Eleven Rack is probably not your best vehicle for this approach.
All I asked was if it was possible to turn off the mic emulation. I never asked for near field response or anything else. Nonetheless, you make very good points here. I do not want to shut down your POV. I simply do not want to lose sight of my original post.

In the end, it's comes down to taste, or just plain desire. I have a taste for un-mic'ed amp sounds and would like to remove as many obstacles to it as possible. I understand that goal is complicated, but, I want to try. I might very well like the imperfect result.

I'm guessing that something like the Yamaha THR series is what I'm looking for, or a software solution if the latency is acceptable. The number one priority is recording a totally clean signal and being able to apply a tone to it whenever I want. But, I want an affected sound in my head phones while recording. I guess that 4 inputs should be sufficient to cover the possibilities: straight guitar signal, stereo pedal/rack signal, and one more just in case(just a fuzz box, for example).

Do you have any recommendations?

Last edited by thepresident777; 06-26-2013 at 04:23 AM.
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  #16  
Old 06-26-2013, 09:46 AM
TieDyedDevil TieDyedDevil is offline
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Default Re: Microphone Emulators

Quote:
Originally Posted by thepresident777 View Post
... It's fabricated. ...
As a long-time developer of computer-based products, I have some significant experience with the tradeoffs that play into what goes into a product and what doesn't. "Fabricated" seems to imply malice aforethought...

Quote:
Do you have any recommendations?
There are in fact modelers that allow you to turn off the virtual mic. IIRC, the Boss GT-series products (at least since the GT-8; I don't know about older models) and at least some of the Line6 PODs have this feature. That's the good news.

The bad news is that their "modeling" seems far less accurate than the modeling in the Eleven Rack. In the case of the GT-x and the PODs, what you're getting is more along the lines of a switch to disable an oversimplified fiction of what it means to put a mic in front of a speaker.

Which is not to say that either the GT-x or the PODs are "bad" modelers. I've recorded and performed using a GT-8, with excellent results. I've also had some good experiences playing various borrowed PODs (although I'd hesitate to buy one because I don't particularly care for the Line6 build quality or UI).

That said, I don't really think that it's the "emulated mic on/off" switch that's standing between you and the sound you'd like to hear in the room. It's more complicated than that. Go back and try some of the earlier suggestions made by me and others in this thread...
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  #17  
Old 06-26-2013, 10:48 AM
nst7 nst7 is offline
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Default Re: Microphone Emulators

President777, maybe there are terminology differences here. When you mention in your last post "straight guitar signal", it sounds like you're referring to a completely unaffected signal, direct guitar with no processing. If this is what you mean, the Eleven Rack does this. It also lets you do the sound of the amp with no cabinet. Are these what you're referring to?
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  #18  
Old 06-26-2013, 12:15 PM
Deansy Deansy is offline
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Default Re: Microphone Emulators

Quote:
Originally Posted by thepresident777 View Post
The number one priority is recording a totally clean signal and being able to apply a tone to it whenever I want.....

Do you have any recommendations?
That's very simple using the ELVEN. All you have to do is Select ELVEN ASIO in your DAW to use it as an audio interface. Add a track in your DAW. For the input of that track Selcet "Eleven guitar in" and you're done and the output to "Eleven Re-amp. Now you can record meanwhile the output of your ElEven racks are plugged into monitors and you can hear the effected sound meanwhile you're recording the dry signal.
Later if you want to Reamp that Track, from the eleven Rack Control Panel you set "Rig Input" option to "Re-amp" instead of guitar in. Now as you play that track you can scroll through the presets and audition the various sounds. Furthermore you can add a plugin like Amplitube, GR etc and try any of there presets (for that though you have to change the output setting on the dry track to something other than Re-amp.
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  #19  
Old 06-26-2013, 07:08 PM
derker derker is offline
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Default Re: Microphone Emulators

I think what OP is missing is that cabinet impulses are captured using a microphone. Whether a Shure SM57, or an Earthworks reference mic, a microphone must be used at some point to measure the frequency response of a cab/speaker. Had Avid used mics like the Earthworks, maybe you'd be happier with your 11r.

In addition, the Eleven Rack was (and most modelers I would assume were) created primarily to recreate tones used in the studio and live. In both of those situations real cabinets are mic'd (and usually not a reference mic) in order to either record or send through a PA. Like it or not, that's classically the case - an amp with a cab, and a microphone (with positioning).

If you prefer to use a real guitar cab/speaker - as many do - you can easily disable the cab sims and use them. If you don't like the selection in 11r (more options can never be bad, I think) you can still disable the cab and use a plugin to select a different impulse. Unfortunately at this time, you cannot load them onto the hardware and take them with you. If that's your beef, then I'm on your side. :)
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  #20  
Old 06-27-2013, 08:32 AM
thepresident777 thepresident777 is offline
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Default Re: Microphone Emulators

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Originally Posted by nst7 View Post
President777, maybe there are terminology differences here. When you mention in your last post "straight guitar signal", it sounds like you're referring to a completely unaffected signal, direct guitar with no processing. If this is what you mean, the Eleven Rack does this. It also lets you do the sound of the amp with no cabinet. Are these what you're referring to?
Then, when I monitor the signal I'm stuck listening to a mic emulation or I have no cabinet sound just the amp head which is a lot weirder than cab sound without mic emulation.

Who plays into an amp head without a cab? Yet, I have to be stuck with a mic emulation on the cab because you need a mic to record a cab? Sure, you could put an attenuator on the amp head and go direct from there. So, is there an attenuator emulation in any of these modelers? No.

The reason for being forced to use a mic emulation is not being applied consistently, but arbitrarily instead. And, in the end, it's all digital. There is no good reason to limit people's options. We are talking about music after all.
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