Can you route 1-2 to patchbay? eg via Presonus Quantum

[tj7]

Howdy -

Presonus Quantum / Samson Patchbay / PT Studio 2023 / iMac Pro

Potentially the answer is staring me in the face but I'm still missing it!
I have all 8x channels routed to and from my patchbay. Works like a dream.
However.
I am running a mic into mic input #2 via the front of the Presonus (which has 2 mic inputs there). I'm getting a signal and tracking dry it's working just fine.

Using my trusty patchbay I am trying to route that channel #2 OUT to a rack compressor and then from that compressor to input #6 for my compressed signal. This sort of thing I do routinely from inputs 3-8, but there is something tricky about the process when it comes to 1-2 because I know this is also where monitoring happens. This is where my brain starts to melt.

I'm getting absolutely no signal from #2 to my compressor, even though I have absolutely got it patched from #2 to compressor. I have checked that my patch cable is not faulty. I have checked that a plain signal to #2 is happening (ie when there is no patching), and it is fine. Yet when I patch out from that channel to my compressor, zero signal.

I assumed that ultimately ALL channels can be patched etc in the same way, but evidently not with 1-2. Am I correct about this? What am I missing?

Any help would be much appreciated!

Thanks

[tj7]

Additionally -
I'm getting the same dead signal when I try simply putting some audio onto channel 2 in pro tools, then routing that channel to my rack compressor using line output 2 in the output path (ie with a patch running from 2 output to compressor in my patchbay).
As soon as I change the output route to channel *3* (and repatch accordingly at patchbay, running patch cable out of channel *3* instead), I'm getting signal to my compressor.
So this is definitely unique behaviour to channels 1-2, most likely because they are also the standard monitoring channel - and it's either just not possible to patch those channels, or I'm simply missing an important step to enable those channels to be patchable as per the other channels....

[Darryl Ramm]

Are you trying to use H/W inserts? For other tracks? (and if not why not?)

Confirm you have the Quantum not Quantum 2?

And the Output I/O on these boxes is likely misnumbered in many DAWs, an annoyingly stupid move by Presonus and other vendors who do this, if you are going to have stereo output monitors on ports 1&2 also called say Main Output I wish the vendors would label the bloody things 1&2 as well, and work up from there for other I/O.

I would not be surprised if you just have stuff mixed up and Main Output is 1&2 in the DAW, and 1&2 is really 3&4 in the DAW etc. There is no hope here in guessing what you are referring to exactly. Without you being super-clear and that probably should be screen shots of your I/O>Setup pages. If you are still stuck, post them at high resolution on an external file sharing site, and post a link to that here.

There is nothing special on these interfaces about the main output, they have no hardware monitoring/mixer, that's entirely up to you to set up buses mapped to outputs in Pro Tools I/O setup. The only things that might play into this is hardware output level settings in the interface.

Again, get your Setup>IO set up perfectly. Use a test session and mono signal gen to probe the outputs and make sure you have them correctly labeled in Pro Tools. e.g. I personally would change (if needed) the Pro Tools I/O setup to follow the port number labels (not actual port numbers) that Presonus uses, it should, but may not do this by default properly. i.e. end up with a have a "main out L/R" and have a separate 1&2 (which is really IO port 3&4) etc. If you really don't want a main monitor output I'd still use say Main L and Main R just to leverage the labeling on the interface (unless you are willing to obscure/relabel that). This stuff done stupidly like this drives me batty.

Use Pro Tools meters and Universal Control meters and Pro Tools signal gen on mono tracks to trace your signals if needed.

[tj7]

Thanks for your reply Daryl,

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

Are you trying to use H/W inserts? For other tracks? (and if not why not?)

Ah... hardware inserts?
Sorry I'm not sure what you mean... I'm *terrible* with terminology!
I've uploaded images of my interface + patch bay.
Basically, I have all 8 x line in/outs running through the patch bay.
I track through live rack - hardware compression, verbs, eq's.
I also lay down clean tracks and post-recording route tracks through my rack gear. The patch bay works a treat for this purposes. Except for 1+2...

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

Confirm you have the Quantum not Quantum 2?

I believe it's the Q1, as pictured. [EDIT] LOL I just looked at my footer... which says "2".... I can't even remember writing that!

I've also attached screens of my I/O setup in PT...

Maybe this helps clarify things?

[tj7]

+ inserts screenshot + the rack / setup

[Darryl Ramm]

Hardware inserts, has a broad industry use. The term goes back to inserts on a console. If you want to apply outboard hardware compressors, EQ, reverb etc. to the output of a Pro Tools track you really should do that using Pro Tools hardware inserts. Yes you can bodge together tracks like it seems like you are, but it's just the "wrong" way to work, it's less elegant and will create sessions that are less clear with what you are doing. Hardware inserts look and act like plugins, after all the whole plugin signal flow and UI/UX behavior are just software copies of how effect inserts were/are done on real consoles.

All this is well documented in the Pro Tools reference guide and there must be a ton of tutorial about how to work with Pro Tools and hardware inserts. The non-flexible thing with Pro Tools hardware inserts is that an insert has to consist of a matching pair of output and input port I/O number (the numerical port numbers not the port names, which your interfaces mess up). And some folks get confused about latency compensation with hardware inserts, you need ADC enabled for that latency compensation. I've written a pile on DUC about hardware inserts, latency and latency compensation.

Switching to do this "properly" with hardware inserts may not fix any issues you are having now, and it will take some work/learning but you should still do it.

The counter to this is be careful of over fixation on hardware, for many uses folks do better with plugins. Now if you have a huge budget for premium outboard boxes and want to use them I'd not stand in the way. But don't run away from plugins to hardware for the wrong reasons.

---

From the screenshots it looks like at least the outputs are defaulted to the I/O labels on the interface. Monitor Outputs are ports 1&2 and Output 1&2 are ports 3 & 4. But your bus page is a mess. You should be working much cleaner than that. I would have all the busses actually mapped to outputs listed at the top and then pure busses below. You have stuff with duplicate/close names analog 1-2, line out 1-2, adat 1-2, etc. Start by seeing what deleting al the busses then defaulting does. Not sure why you have Output 1-8 as the output meter path, etc.

You will need to work through all this and solve this problem, clean up the bus page as a start, make sure you check where all those signals are going, again use signal gen on mono tracks in a test session, you can look at meters in the Presonus control app and make sure output levels in the interface are turned up. You can measure signal gen output (e.g. use a sine wave at -20dBFS at 1kHz) levels with an AC multimeter if that helps. All outputs should have the same measured AC voltage (if you have the Presonus monitor level control set at 0dB). But I'd also just switch over and start using hardware inserts properly.

If you are measuring the outputs are all the same with signal gen, then the problem is in the patch bay, the cable to/from the patch bay, or the outboard hardware box. It's easy to make mistakes with cabling. e.g. boxes that expect a single sided insert cable wiring instead of balanced line level. Hardware insert boxes that might have attenuators turned on, or other inputs selected, checking signal flow with Presonus console meters, Pro Tools meters, multimeters etc. all helps you see exactly what i going on, and for a start remove all the outboard boxes and replace them with straight through cables and get that working.

If you do switching over to hardware inserts, get a single mono hardware insert working first in an as simple as possible test session. Again using a straight though cable as the outboard device. Confirm things stop working when you disconnect the cable.

[tj7]

Thanks!

My brain is now a puddle of sludge.

I've had absolutely zero problems with my rig, over many years.
The only reason this 1-2 issue has come up is because I needed to temporarily reconfigure things whilst I'm waiting for a new bit of kit to arrive.
So long term I probably won't even need to patch 1-2 to anything.
There's a lot to be said for "if it ain't broke..."

I am interested in deciphering / learning etc around what you have shared but it'll take me weeks - I'm not a paid music / mixer, I do it all outside of a hardcore hospital job.

The bus thing - honestly I literally never even touched that stage. What you are seeing is the default settings. Once I had this Presonus hooked up and set up to basic functionality, I had no reason to fiddle...

I really do appreciate your advice, though. I'm not dismissing it - just accepting the reality that what I had hoped was a simple problem of channels 1-2 not letting themselves be patched out is actually such a complex riddle that I'll need time off work to even begin to understand it. And in a week or so, I'll have the gear I need and revert back to how I was doing it all before anyway... because it works! I may well be wrong in how I'm doing it, but I've made several records that way....and they sound just the way I want them to.

I am going to come back to this, though, when time permits, and see where it takes me. Thankyou!