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  #1  
Old 03-31-2007, 04:10 AM
rhumphries rhumphries is offline
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Default OT: film workflow question

Hello folks,

I have a project that I'm working on and I want to make sure I'm not making it harder than it needs to be. It's one of those "favor" projects that end up being more work than any paying project could every be. Any help will be much appreciated.

Here's the background: It was shot on film (mostly 16mm I believe) with the audio recorded on a Nagra with no TC. Most of the footage was shot 10-15 years ago.

At the time, the narga tapes were transferred to mag and then synced during the 1-light telecine. The show is being cut on an Avid Media Composer (not Film Composer), and will end up on video tape, not back on film.

When we initially discussed the project we intended to export an OMF from the Avid--easy. But now the director would like to go back to the Nagra tapes as the source for the audio. If the source tapes will sound significantly better than the transfer to mag & then video tape, I can appreciate that & will try to make it happen.

Here's the problem: How do I sync everything back up? I can load all of the audio from the Nagra into PT, but then I'd have to use notes (which I'm told exist) and ear-match it shot by shot, since I don't have the benefit of having the entire film take including the slate. Is there an easier way?


Another workflow question: When I load the audio, I assume I should record it with PT running at 48.048, so that when I work at 48k along side the picture, the new audio is pulled down, right?


Thanks for any help.

-Richard
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  #2  
Old 03-31-2007, 05:25 AM
Richard Fairbanks Richard Fairbanks is offline
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Default Re: OT: film workflow question

Without timecode you will have to rely on the take notes and your ears. It only sucks really bad when you are trying to find words that were never said in the original performances of that scene and the editor got creative and borrowed from somewhere else, and never wrote it down. You might have to use the mag recordings here and there.

Shot in the states? Mono Nagra? The tapes will likely have "Nagra sync", a 60hz (here, 50hz over there) neo-pilot signal recorded on them. This is used to resolve the tape's playback speed for no drift. Rent a Nagra (other decks might also be available) with built in resolver to play the tapes back at a crystal-locked speed and record to Pro Tools at pull-up speed (48.048kHz, as you said) and you should be good to go (assuming the original 'one light' transfer pulled the film speed down to video speed. They didn't always!).

Some resolvers can also resolve those tapes to a different speed, such as your video black. In that case, you could record into PT at 48kHz, but I'd just stick with crystal sync.

Do not simply play the tapes on any old 1/4" deck, as you will never get the same playback speed AND you will hear a 60hz tone on one or both channels.

Best of luck.
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Old 03-31-2007, 06:10 AM
Frank Kruse Frank Kruse is offline
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Default Re: OT: film workflow question

Quote:
Here's the problem: How do I sync everything back up? I can load all of the audio from the Nagra into PT, but then I'd have to use notes (which I'm told exist) and ear-match it shot by shot, since I don't have the benefit of having the entire film take including the slate. Is there an easier way?

I´m afraid that´s your only option. There is a workflow where the audio is transferred to mag with TC on one track and later you can use a colin broad reader that will create an EDL from the edited mag-rolls by loging the tc-breaks.

This will not work in your case because there is no machine-readable reference between your original tapes and the cut.

Sounds like hand (ear) syncing from scratch. What will help is to use the cut-list of the film to find out wich takes where used for picture the find the according sound on the nagra-tapes using the sound-reports.

I´d load all the tapes into PT and have an intern split and lable all takes wich makes access easier. Find the cut-list of the film. Taht will help you find the takes that go with the picture.

Sounds like A LOT of work.

BTW: There is no reason why the Mag wouldn´t be excelent quality. Is there a log that references the mag to the video-tape made in telecine? Did they stripe the Mag with TC? Then you have a good chance of referencing the cut to the Mag. But back to the Nagra isn´t possible other than manually.

Frank.
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Old 03-31-2007, 07:37 AM
Richard Fairbanks Richard Fairbanks is offline
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Default Re: OT: film workflow question

Hi Frank! I always enjoy your posts. 35 mag can sound pretty good. 16 mag? I don't know. I know that a really good machine with good stock can sound as good as a 7.5ips tape (standard Nagra speed), but the 16 mags I used to get were all over the map in terms of audio quality and they almost always sounded like the oxide was flaking off! I do not miss mag at all.
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Old 03-31-2007, 09:14 AM
JKD99 JKD99 is offline
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Default Re: OT: film workflow question

Hi there,
The OMF output should contain Scene/Take IDs just in the naming of the regions, so that will help you identify what shots you need to reload and assemble. An EDL would also have the soundroll number, which speeds things up if there's a lot of tapes to hunt through. Hopefully there's sound reports, and that the stuff in the Avid is slated the same as on the soundrolls themselves: "OK, 34 Apple Take 5, no wait.....it's 34 Baker Take 1"
(Unfortunately) I've had to do this manual assembly of an entire film a couple of times. It's not difficult, just tedious, and a great learning task for assistants!

Good luck
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Old 03-31-2007, 09:27 AM
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Branko Branko is offline
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Default Re: OT: film workflow question

I'd like to add one more thing: If you're lucky, these mag transfers to 16mm were edge-numbered. The edge numbering was a very practical way of identifying what parts of various takes were used in the cut. One of the main reasons for edge-numbering was mag replacement before mix, as it could get damaged in the editing process and/or various screening rooms.
The edge numbering process used to look smething like this: after syncing the takes, assistant editor would assemble the material, producing a picture and sound reels (double-band). These would then go to edge numbering machine. There were two ways of doing it: 1.) each reel was printed with increasing numbers starting from a pre-defined sync point, untill the end of the reel, or 2.) every take was numbered separately, begining at the start point (slate closed).
The first method would produce something like AABBB 00001, AABBB 00002, AABBB 00003, etc. An assistant editor would have a code book, where take numbers (slates) would be associated with respective ink number.
The second method would use slate text for identification, producing something like: 12-4-01/0001,12-4-01/0002, 12-4-01/0003, etc. Obviously, the second method was much more useful when mag replacement was needed, while the first method was much faster.
The distance between edge numbers was 16 frames, if I remember it correctly. It was a very handy tool for sync checkin during the editing process.
Hope this helps
Branko
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Old 03-31-2007, 12:26 PM
rhumphries rhumphries is offline
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Default Re: OT: film workflow question

Thanks everybody! I knew that I would get an answer right away from this group. I'll look into the edge numbering, but I'll bet I'm out of luck on that one.

-Richard
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