Audio Post Rig Recommendations

[overnight]

Hi & hello again,

A bunch of questions for all you post audio lovelies.

Some Background:
I recently finished doing post audio and score for my first feature film. It did pretty well, an official selection at Sundance, went on a limited run in theaters (50 or 60 theaters nationally), and was very well received by critics (84% on Rottentomatoes.com). I did just about all the post audio prior to Dolby... dialog editing, Foley, sound design, Score and the final mix. I learned mountains and heaps but got paid very little with the understanding of more down the road. The director funded the movie himself (not sure but I think only a few hundred K) and basically ran out of dough.. thus why he turned to a noob hungry for the chance.

Anyway, I've now just finished delivering all the stuff for the DVD as well as the 6+2 M&E, Stems etc etc and though the director is still in the financial tank he's agreed to help buy a new rig now as part of my payment. He's a little vague about what he can handle at the moment but the number seems to hover around 3 or 4K.

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The Point

Can't say how many big post audio projects I'm going to get in the near future. Likely it's going to be small potatoes for a while. I'm not likely going to be mixing another full length feature at home anytime soon. That said, I'm beating the bushes and I'm a man who likes to be prepared. The post houses I've had meetings with have floated the possibility of sliding me some overflow work at home rather than bringing me on staff. Which of course means I'd want to be ready.

What I've got now is:
G5 Power Mac - 2.3 (Older, regular PCI Slots) w/ 6Gigs Ram, Pro Tools 7 LE, 003 Rack w/ DV Toolkit. I have an RME FF800 for music and more serious recording.

Options at 4K:
1. Stay w/ LE, buy new Power Mac, Quad Core 2.66 w/ 8Gigs Ram. Pro Tools 8 & Complete Production Toolkit upgrade from DV Toolkit ($600 off eBay).

Pros: Much stronger computer and overall a stable system. I'll have 4 or 5 years of computer life, maybe a little more. Pro Tools 8 looks great for music composition, I could finally walk away from Logic which I've never loved. Could get a little scratch for my current computer and software.

Cons: I HATED the ADC problems I was having at the end of working on the film in LE. I basically had to beg into a friends studio with an HD rig for a few weeks of overnights to do all the final tweaks on the mix. I also had to do the track de-activate/activate dance with the track counts. Wasn't a killer but a nuisance. Potentially huge con: pretty sure my waves bundle would either have to be re-purchased or upgraded at a steep price. Am I wrong?

Note: I know there's that Mellowmuse program that takes care of the ADC problem for systems using LE but I'm not so comfortable with it and it makes me nervous. Maybe my nerves are unfounded? Would love to hear from folks who use it in post! I used it a little in music with varied results. "Varied" sync results are obviously not acceptable in post audio, though in it's defense I haven't yet dug into the program to learn it in depth. I didn't start the session with it and was advised not to try and insert it after the fact, that you really need to start the session from scratch with it. Very important I hear from folks who use this in post! My experience with it is not extensive.

2. Stay w/ the G5, add 2 to 4Gigs more Ram and buy a used HD system off ebay. Passive searching indicates I could get a used 96 I/O and an HD1, maybe 2 (PCI not PCIe) card setup for close to 4K.

Pros: No more horrible ADC issues. No realistic track count ceiling. I hate buying computers as their value drops so fast and I could make bread for a while longer on the current rig. Don't have to upgrade my Waves bundle!

Cons: Not familiar with putting together an HD rig, feel fairly certain I'm leaving something out. (Just interface + cards + computer, right?) Not sure about how long I can stick with this rig... 2 years, maybe 3? I was hitting the ceiling with my computer's CPU pretty hard before. I know it's be better with the cards but likely still not great. I'd be sticking with PT 7 and Logic for music. Again, not a killer but I have no love for Logic.

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Gosh I hope some of you are still with me. So I guess a lot of this depends on if Mellowmuse is a usable work around. Again, would appreciate input from folks who use it in post. Really unsure about putting together an older HD rig. I feel like I could go either way. Your input is deeply appreciated!

[Postman]

A couple of quick thoughts. HD1 is not enough. HD2 will at least give you some serious track counts, assuming your drives are fast enough, but will still fall short for surround work. ADC is nice but not flawless, and uses extra DSP, leaving less for plugins. You can manually compensate for latencies, and I usually check my outputs for proper time alignment using "pings", like the 2-pop at the beginning of every project. Mellowdyne's thing is cool but not necessary with a few minutes of manual labor.

If I were in your shoes and had to make and either/or choice I'd go with a more powerful LE system instead of a limited HD system. OTOH, if you can buy an HD2 AND a powerful cpu, you'll have the best of both worlds.

[overnight]

Interesting that HD1 isn't enough in your opinion That would obviously alter the decision a bit. I was totally tortured by the ADC issue. I need to learn the manual method but I hate having to stop everything and do some meticulous calculating for 20 minutes just because I wanted to dial up a reverb. Maybe I'm being a baby about it but it's the one thing that is probably driving this dilemma for me more than anything else.

Anyway, thanks!

[Eric Seaberg]

I wouldn't let the fact that I want a 'delay compensated' REVERB sway the decision. IMHO, a reverb without delay compensation merely has a built-in PRE-DELAY, which I usually add anyway. Typical DC for limiters and such is really low, on the order of 60-80 samples. Not worth the expense for TDM, IMHO.

Keep doing the research. You'll probably discover that most plug-in manufacturers are USING the faster CPU speeds available natively, and you win in both cases, i.e. no need for HD and cheaper pricing on the plug-in side.


g'luck!

[overnight]

Thanks for that, I do need to research what you're saying though about plugs now taking this stuff into account. Unfortunately any ADC at all is unacceptable when ever you're dealing with syncing against time code, doing dialog editing against lips etc. The avererage person can tell I think as small as 2 or 3 frames of delay. Changing within the plugin versus via a manual delay plugin is 6 to one, half dozen the other imo. I just don't have confidence that at some point I wouldn't screw up a manual method and have to redo mountains of work. If for instance you had three tracks of dialog and you're editing the room tone track to smooth the holes in the dialog and later figure out that one of the dialog tracks was off by 10 samples not only would you have to just shift the track but the entire room tone track would have to be re-edited. This is a pretty small example of what could cost hours of fix time. Totally realistic.

But I think I know what the answer is and you're basically right. I should nut-up and get used to the manual method. Boo hoo.

[infiniteloop]

Don't sweat it man. Get as big a MacPro as you can, and go LE/CPTk. The inherent delay when editing dialogue should be zero - why would you edit dials through a layer of mega-delay plugs? Dials edits happen first. Be sensible with how you work reverbs in auxes, not inserts etc. - you can do so, so much with a screaming mac and that investment will last for 3-4 years. A used HD rig will do some good work now, with limitations, and be redundant in a years' time when Digi dump the TDM platform. You will be amazed how much 5.1 stuff you can do with almost no latency on a really nippy Mac.

[Eric Seaberg]

Originally Posted by overnight

If for instance you had three tracks of dialog and you're editing the room tone track to smooth the holes in the dialog and later figure out that one of the dialog tracks was off by 10 samples not only would you have to just shift the track but the entire room tone track would have to be re-edited.

HELLO!!! 10-samples??!! At 48kHz you're talking .00025 of a second for 12-samples!! ARE YOU SERIOUS??!! I don't usually start worrying about sync until I hit .25 to .50 frames, which is between 400 and 800 samples.

Don't spend the $$$ if you don't need it.

[TVPostSound]

If for instance you had three tracks of dialog and you're editing the room tone track to smooth the holes in the dialog and later figure out that one of the dialog tracks was off by 10 samples not only would you have to just shift the track but the entire room tone track would have to be re-edited. This is a pretty small example of what could cost hours of fix time. Totally realistic.

Hmmmm....... How do you edit dialogue, and room tone, where 10 samples makes a difference???

Read this, you wont worry about ADC for room tone then!!

[infiniteloop]

i'm wondering just how zoomed-in overnight is when he does his dial edits! that's a lot of sideways scrolling!

[jafbox]

im running PT8 with CPTK/ black lion audio sig mod 003r and a 3.2ghz 8 core mac pro w/20 gigs ram.

mainly sound deign design work for advertising and film. i have mixed two released features in 5.1 with the system though.

i have to say im very happy i went with this system rather then an HD1. my only complaint would be the track count maxing at 128 but for mixing the features i comped stems from each reel and was actually a good process for organization.. (DIA, Foley props, cloth, fx etc) im not traditionally a mixer so this wasnt a big concern of mine buying the system.. the BLA 003r sig mod sounds really great. different then a 192. but great.

i did a test where i had 48 waves IR reverbs going.. my cpu was at 30 percent and PT was running 64 tracks without a hickup.. so i wouldnt worry about PTLE CPTK and a fast macpro in terms of processing power. havent had any issues in that dept.

the only delay isssues ive had were very specific to certain plugins for example the "mix" parameter in speakerphone really messes things up.. other then that though delay is minimal and quickly fixable with mellowmuse ATA.. i am usually using alot of plugins as well...

considering my work, the only reason why i would upgrade to HD2 is for trackcount really.. and for 64 more tracks and maybe an industry standard 192. 8k is quite steep even though its still a huge discount.