Using time align for drum kit

[n_vegas]

Hello I have a time align question in regards to the number of times you can use it to align elements of a drum kit.

I saw a video on YouTube teaching time alignment. They used snare in this example. They wanted to line up the snare bleed in all the close mics (they didn’t align overheads to keep ambience). They took the close mic with the furthest sample distance from the snare, this happened to be the floor tom. They then proceeded to line every track up with the floor tom distance by putting an instance of time align on the snare top, bottom, kick, and rack tom. This his all makes sense to me, but my question is :

If you do this for one element of the set, say snare, that is the only one you can time align since now the plugin is on every track? I couldn’t for example then go to the kick and time align that because that would mess up the sample delay set on all the other channels. Is that a way to phase align multiple aspects of the from drum or do I just have to pick my biggest priority? Bonus question, do you do phase (and polarity if you didn’t do it at tracking) last after big time adjustments like beat detective, or can you do it before then do editing to get it tighter to the click?

[albee1952]

Wow, does this open a can of worms. Sound Radix AutoAlign is probably the best tool for doing this, but consider:
The average acoustic drumkit tracked with several mics(I used 13 on my kit) will have different phase relationship between most any 2 mics you pick. Next, every time you move(align) a single element, it changes the relationship with every other element(except for your "guide" track). Remember that for several decades, drums were recorded without a ton of technology and we certainly bought millions(billions?) of those recordings. For sure, I would align 2 kick drum tracks(like inner and outside), but I would do that by nudging one track until it matches the other. If its recorded well in the first place, then mix it and make music. If it sounds bad, then you need to figure out where the issue lies. Maybe its too much bleed(in which case you might use some gating or sound-replace certain elements). Maybe one overhead was a foot further away from the snare than the other(in which case, you could simply nudge one overhead so snare hits are exactly at the same sample). I guess my point is; do you have a problem you need to fix, or are you worried that you are not doing something that some other person says you need to do?

[n_vegas]

Originally Posted by albee1952

Wow, does this open a can of worms. Sound Radix AutoAlign is probably the best tool for doing this, but consider:
The average acoustic drumkit tracked with several mics(I used 13 on my kit) will have different phase relationship between most any 2 mics you pick. Next, every time you move(align) a single element, it changes the relationship with every other element(except for your "guide" track). Remember that for several decades, drums were recorded without a ton of technology and we certainly bought millions(billions?) of those recordings. For sure, I would align 2 kick drum tracks(like inner and outside), but I would do that by nudging one track until it matches the other. If its recorded well in the first place, then mix it and make music. If it sounds bad, then you need to figure out where the issue lies. Maybe its too much bleed(in which case you might use some gating or sound-replace certain elements). Maybe one overhead was a foot further away from the snare than the other(in which case, you could simply nudge one overhead so snare hits are exactly at the same sample). I guess my point is; do you have a problem you need to fix, or are you worried that you are not doing something that some other person says you need to do?

Thank you for the thoughtful answer!

I have a pretty modest setup by modern standards. Close mic on snare, kick in, one rack ton, and one floor tom. Two small diaphragm condensers above the kit and one room. I don’t think any of them have issues or terrible phase problems. To answer your last question it’s more of the latter. I’m (fairly) new to mixing and I was watching some people’s process on drums and I just didn’t want to leave anything on the table. I don’t think there is necessarily a problem I’m trying to fix, maybe add more punch? But I know lining the snare up with the overheads, for example, could sacrifice some dimension.

[JFreak]

Let's open another can of worms. Which style?

Many times jazz kick is closed and recorded from the beater side. This is not problematic and usually close to zero bleed but weak bottom.

Many times metal kicks are open and likely miked from both sides. Inside would give you oomph and beater side would give you snap. So you would need to align left kick inside and outside together, then right kick inside and outside together.

Many times jazz snare is miked from top and bottom, most everything else from top only. If you have two mics on snare, be very careful that you have proper phase as they easily cancel out. Resulting too snare heavy sound without any snap from the stick.

And so on and so on.

Point being you need to edit your kicks and snares first and worry about the rest of the kit only after you have your mono beat together. The most difficult thing mixing drum kit live with too little time for sound check.

[EGS]

Originally Posted by n_vegas

... do editing to get it tighter to the click?

Personally, I do manual drum edits. I try to retain as much natural "human drift" as possible.

Group together all the drum tracks. Cut once every 4 bars (or so). Time compress/expand the whole group to land on the click every 4 bars. This will retain human drift within the 4 bars, but overall keeps it on the correct song tempo. I do this even if the drums are cut wild (no click) during tracking. If other players tracked live along with the live drums, just add those tracks to the edit group. You can try cutting every 2 bars to get it tighter, at the expense of losing some of the human drift. Most other drum tightening methods sound too rigid for my taste, and sometimes can cause phase/other issues. My 2 cents!

[basslik]

I like using time adjuster and just count the samples to line up the waveform.


I just don't trust myself moving regions.

[albee1952]

FWIW, I'd like to add 2 points:
1-You should(assuming the usual pair of overhead mics) make sure that each overhead is the exact same distance from the center of the snare drum.
2-I just watched a short video from Warren Huart where he aligned(using the time adjust plugin) his snare to the snare sound in the overheads(backing the snare later in time). That single(2 more for multiple snare mics) adjustment made a solid improvement in the snare within the overall kit sound. My own preference would be to move the snare audio back, but that's just a personal preference.

Last 2(or 3) cents; experimenting is a great teacher If you are recording your own drums, you might also check out the Glyn Johns micing setup(plenty of info on the web). If you are not familiar with Warren Huart, he has a youtube channel called(I think) Produce with the Pros and its a great source of experience that anyone can tap into.

[JFreak]

+1 to measuring OH distance from snare center. And if you take the snare bottom as well, you also need to calculate that distance. Not always practical live, but in studio you have no excuse.

While you practice, why not also put a mono overhead to the middle of the kit pointing to snare center? You should be able to get better sound with stereo OH, not worse. So when you drop extra tracks to just mono OH and snare top, that is ultimately the sound you need to beat. Otherwise no point in using so many mics you cannot control.

[basslik]

+2


Yeah I dig it.


I also time adjust slightly on both kicks to match up with the overheads low end.

[n_vegas]

Is there a way to like comments on this platform?? So many good replies thank you everyone!!

If it means anything, I have my overheads (or cymbal mics im calling them) about 2 ft in the center of the kit in a ORFT configuration. They are on the same bar and in phase with each other. If I’m remembering right they may be about 130 samples or so behind the close mic snare.

I’m gathering maybe lining snare top and overheads are good? I don’t have any snare bottoms or kick out to align with each other. I’ve already edited them and made the drums line up to the click, will pushing the snare back to the overheads in time align create any perceived latency now that everything is lined up?

I do know warrens channel I think it’s fantastic!