Documentation Folder updates

[dominicperry]

I have iDrive backing up my entire "Documents" folder on my Mac (overnight).
I have Pro Tools using all the default MacOS locations for everything.
Everytime I start Pro Tools, it refreshes 7 documents in the Documents/Pro Tools/Documentation folder.
This means that every time I open Pro Tools I end up with another backup of those 7 documents.
I don't want to exclude any folders from my main Documents folder backup, because then any new folders added to Documents won't get backed up. It needs to always backup new files and changed files, which is what it currently does.
So I have two questions. Why does PT refresh these documents every time it runs, and is there any way to stop it from doing so?

Thanks

Dominic

[albee1952]

Hmmm, not sure, but I have 1 question/concern; Are you putting your sessions into your documents folder(this is the default setting)? I would change that(use the Prompt for Location option for new sessions). Just my opinion, but, assuming your system drive is an SSD, I would create a new folder for all your sessions and back that folder up as a separate item. My reasons are:
1-So your session backups are kept separate(there are a few reasons why this would be my choice), though I don't know if this will affect your direct issue.
2-I just prefer some things to be separated.
3-I would also be backing up your system(separate from your sessions).

With this in mind, I would also move current sessions to the new "Sessions" folder. Of course, all of this also assumes you have only the single SSD. With non-SSD or multiple drives, I might choose to do this differently.

But wait, there's more If you are creating your own Session Templates and Track Presets(and by all means, you should), keep copies of those somewhere else than the Documents folder(an external drive is a good choice). Why? Because every time you install Pro Tools, it will install all the stock(and mostly useless) stuff, which you can feel free to delete immediately after the install(along with maybe deleting Avid Link as well)

[dominicperry]

Thanks for your reply. I'll answer your questions, but I don't think any of them have a bearing on the original query....

Originally Posted by albee1952

Hmmm, not sure, but I have 1 question/concern; Are you putting your sessions into your documents folder(this is the default setting)? I would change that(use the Prompt for Location option for new sessions). Just my opinion, but, assuming your system drive is an SSD, I would create a new folder for all your sessions and back that folder up as a separate item.

No, I don't use the default location for these - most of my stuff is in Documents/Studio One/Songs because that's where S1 puts stuff, and so I didn't want PT things somewhere different. It hasn't caused a problem. I make a new sub-folder for each new song (well, I let PT make a new folder). I include [PT] in the title to distinguish it from [R] - Reaper and [L] Logic and no designation - Studio One. Too many DAWs over the years.

My reasons are:
1-So your session backups are kept separate(there are a few reasons why this would be my choice), though I don't know if this will affect your direct issue.
2-I just prefer some things to be separated.
3-I would also be backing up your system(separate from your sessions).

I back up my entire internal SSD drive to an external disk on a regular basis (about once a month) and the Documents folder after every music session (to a different disk). I also backup my entire Documents folder to Dropbox (in realtime) and to iDrive overnight. Yes, that's 5 copies including the orginal.. I've never lost a thing.

With this in mind, I would also move current sessions to the new "Sessions" folder. Of course, all of this also assumes you have only the single SSD. With non-SSD or multiple drives, I might choose to do this differently.

I don't intend to move my sessions as they are huge (in aggregate) and it would require re-syncing of all my backups, which takes literally weeks from scratch. Unless, of course, there's some good reason to NOT have my sessions in the current folder.

But wait, there's more If you are creating your own Session Templates and Track Presets(and by all means, you should), keep copies of those somewhere else than the Documents folder(an external drive is a good choice). Why? Because every time you install Pro Tools, it will install all the stock(and mostly useless) stuff, which you can feel free to delete immediately after the install(along with maybe deleting Avid Link as well)

Unbelievably, I don't create any templates or presets. I probably should, but I always build everything from nothing. But I take your point - if I create some, I need to preserve them in a place where they won't get overwritten.
And yes, Avid Link and Avid Cloud Services go as soon as I've finished the install. They are quite nicely written de-installers!

Thanks for your time in replying.

Dominic

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by dominicperry

I have iDrive backing up my entire "Documents" folder on my Mac (overnight).
I have Pro Tools using all the default MacOS locations for everything.
Everytime I start Pro Tools, it refreshes 7 documents in the Documents/Pro Tools/Documentation folder.
This means that every time I open Pro Tools I end up with another backup of those 7 documents.
I don't want to exclude any folders from my main Documents folder backup, because then any new folders added to Documents won't get backed up. It needs to always backup new files and changed files, which is what it currently does.
So I have two questions. Why does PT refresh these documents every time it runs, and is there any way to stop it from doing so?

Thanks

Dominic

Well (edit: putting my glasses on and actually reading the output) I also see Pro Tools (2022.7 on Monterey 12.5.1 on an Intel MBP) modifying all the files here.

Pro Tools checks if the folder is there and will copy the doc out from its hiding space inside the Pro Tools App bundle.

The birthtime being modified on every startup below makes it look like Avid is really coping those files over every damn time Pro Tools starts up. So not like just touching files, but actually blindly stupidly copying all the files over, and we wonder why Pro Tools is is a slow piece of crap starting up.

File a support incident with Avid support post the incident number here.

---

Quick test here to prove that the Documentation folder and documents times are being updated:

Stat is just a wrapper for the stat system call, the stat time lists is st_atime, st_mtime, st_ctime, st_birthtime aka (last access, last data modification, last file status change (e.g permission, owner etc.), creation)

$ cd ~/Documents/Pro\ Tools/
$ stat Documentation
16777242 111683 drwxr-xr-x 9 darryl staff 0 288 "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 27 21:15:27 2022" 4096 0 0 Documentation
$
$ stat Documentation/*
16777242 1351611 -rw-rw-rw- 1 darryl staff 0 18146577 "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" 4096 35448 0 Documentation/Audio Plug-Ins Guide.pdf
16777242 1351614 -rw-rw-rw- 1 darryl staff 0 50 "Aug 28 15:35:05 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" 4096 8 0 Documentation/Online Documentation.url
16777242 1351612 -rw-rw-rw- 1 darryl staff 0 50 "Aug 28 15:35:05 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" 4096 8 0 Documentation/Online Read Me and Release Information.url
16777242 1351615 -rw-rw-rw- 1 darryl staff 0 10179050 "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" 4096 19888 0 Documentation/Pro Tools Quick Reference Guide.pdf
16777242 1351610 -rw-rw-rw- 1 darryl staff 0 52588890 "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" 4096 102720 0 Documentation/Pro Tools Reference Guide.pdf
16777242 1351609 -rw-rw-rw- 1 darryl staff 0 1006536 "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" 4096 1968 0 Documentation/Pro Tools Shortcuts.pdf
16777242 1351613 -rw-rw-rw- 1 darryl staff 0 686150 "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" "Aug 28 15:35:03 2022" 4096 1344 0 Documentation/What's New in Pro Tools 2022.6.pdf
$

<I separately run and exit Pro Tools> 

$ stat Documentation
16777242 111683 drwxr-xr-x 9 darryl staff 0 288 "Aug 28 15:40:55 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 27 21:15:27 2022" 4096 0 0 Documentation
$
$ stat Documentation/*
16777242 1352093 -rw-rw-rw- 1 darryl staff 0 18146577 "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" 4096 35448 0 Documentation/Audio Plug-Ins Guide.pdf
16777242 1352096 -rw-rw-rw- 1 darryl staff 0 50 "Aug 28 15:40:56 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" 4096 8 0 Documentation/Online Documentation.url
16777242 1352094 -rw-rw-rw- 1 darryl staff 0 50 "Aug 28 15:40:56 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" 4096 8 0 Documentation/Online Read Me and Release Information.url
16777242 1352097 -rw-rw-rw- 1 darryl staff 0 10179050 "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" 4096 19888 0 Documentation/Pro Tools Quick Reference Guide.pdf
16777242 1352092 -rw-rw-rw- 1 darryl staff 0 52588890 "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" 4096 102720 0 Documentation/Pro Tools Reference Guide.pdf
16777242 1352091 -rw-rw-rw- 1 darryl staff 0 1006536 "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" 4096 1968 0 Documentation/Pro Tools Shortcuts.pdf
16777242 1352095 -rw-rw-rw- 1 darryl staff 0 686150 "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" "Aug 28 15:40:54 2022" 4096 1344 0 Documentation/What's New in Pro Tools 2022.6.pdf
$

[dominicperry]

Thanks for checking Darryl.

It's not the end of the world. The seven files are about 80MB, and iDrive does incremental backups, so it may not be the whole file it's backing up each time. And it only keeps 10 copies, so the total amount backed up will be less than 1GB. It's just irritating - I check my backup log every day and like to see it backing up the new and altered stuff. Having a pile of files in there which shouldn't have changed is just a distraction.

Will file a report with Avid as suggested.

Dominic

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by dominicperry

Thanks for checking Darryl.

It's not the end of the world. The seven files are about 80MB, and iDrive does incremental backups, so it may not be the whole file it's backing up each time. And it only keeps 10 copies, so the total amount backed up will be less than 1GB. It's just irritating - I check my backup log every day and like to see it backing up the new and altered stuff. Having a pile of files in there which shouldn't have changed is just a distraction.

Will file a report with Avid as suggested.

Dominic

If iDrive is properly doing incremental backups then it will only be backing up some meta data, should be tiny, but the apparently silliness here of what Avid is doing just blows my mind. By all means Pro Tools check if doc files don't exist (or are down rev) and then update them. But seeming to blindly just copy stuff over every time the app starts up. !@#$%

Pro Tools already does exactly the right thing with core plugins being copied out of the app bundle, why could they not just reuse that same approach/code?

[dominicperry]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

If iDrive is properly doing incremental backups then it will only be backing up some meta data, should be tiny, but the apparently silliness here of what Avid is doing just blows my mind. By all means Pro Tools check if doc files don't exist (or are down rev) and then update them. But seeming to blindly just copy stuff over every time the app starts up. !@#$%

Pro Tools already does exactly the right thing with core plugins being copied out of the app bundle, why could they not just reuse that same approach/code?

I can't tell if the incremental stuff is working correctly - I suspect it is but remember the days when it didn't. Also, it isn't a change to the original document, it's a completely new copy of the document, so it depends what method iDrive uses to compare data as to whether it will make a full copy or not.

As for the plugins / documentation - that's good if they've written the right code somewhere, they can re-use it. I will log a case when I have some time to do so.

Dominic

[smurfyou]

Holy cow Darryl, it is digging it out of the app bundle on startup. 2022.6 here. What a waste.

[take77]

Originally Posted by dominicperry

Thanks for checking Darryl.

The seven files are about 80MB, and iDrive does incremental backups, so it may not be the whole file it's backing up each time. And it only keeps 10 copies, so the total amount backed up will be less than 1GB. It's just irritating - I check my backup log every day and like to see it backing up the new and altered stuff. Having a pile of files in there which shouldn't have changed is just a distraction.

Will file a report with Avid as suggested.

Dominic

What you mentioned is just the beginning.
There are much larger files that will inevitably have their properties changed and subsequently need to be re-uploaded.

For example, every time you import .wav files (or other format) into a session or make an edit, all those .wav files will be uploaded again because of the unique identifiers Pro Tools stamps onto the files.
So the doc files having to re-upload are the least of what's to occur when backing up PT session files online.

I have a whole folders of guitar tracks recorded outside of PT I've backed up.
The moment I import those files into PT (without copying or renaming), they will all have to be freshly uploaded to reflect those changes. This of course happens automatically but needs to happen before it can sync.

Quick auto-syncing usually only happens when simply renaming or moving synced files.
But if Pro tools stamps everything with new identifiers, it all has to be re-upped & synced again.
Not mention a new WaveCache.

Just run the service and let it do its thing in the background while sleeping or out enjoying the sunshine.
Advice I have to regularly give myself.

[dominicperry]

Well I finally got round to trying the suggestions in the Avid case (essentially changing the location of the Documentation Folder, but couched in confused and complex instructions) and of course it continued to do the same thing. So I replied to the email and got

"Closed cases cannot be updated or reopened."

Of course not. Why would you possibly ever want to reopen a closed case?

I will log a new one.

Dominic