bounce is more reverberant than PT mix

[FunkzzaJ]

Hi all good co-travellers in audio-space.

Mixing a song in PT and monitoring the mix on monitors and headphones. Bouncing the mix offline and

1. import the bounce to the mix session. It sounds as the mix
2. copy the bounce to google drive. Streams from there and listen on
2.1 macbook air M1 speakers - totally different and very WET.
2.2 mobile phone speaker - totally different and very WET
2.3 headphones connected to macbook - almost as mix
2.4. headphones connected to mobile phone - almost as mix

Something about mixing I'm not getting here, or is there some side-image boost, or reverb, on the macbook air, or.. what is happening it sounds awful

Please un-confuse me. any tip/advice welcome.

/T

[Darryl Ramm]

You always have to be careful about

1. What exact software are you playing back through and does it add EQ or other effects. This also applies to any monitor controller the Pro Tools monitors are using. Phones and their media players may especially perform processing on the audio.

2. Are comparisons done at the same SPL on similar monitors/phones or are you just hearing those differences? To start with compare using the exact same headphones... they need to be easy to drive for phones/portable devices. You have huge differences here, I am not sure why you expect a phone or laptop speakers to not sound very different from professional monitors or (hopefully) good headphones or earbuds. If you are targeting that playback you may need to remix for them.

3. What exact source are you bouncing in Pro Tools? You have to be super careful that you have a bounce source selected so you are bouncing exactly what you are monitoring. This is a common mistake.

-- And be careful say if you bounce out things with say final bus/master fader processing on them and then reimporting the bounce and have that track set up with final processing reapplied twice, likewise if you bounce at a point before that final processing when you reimport the bounced track make sure it still is going through the final processing.

[pbthias]

So: it always sounds "kinda right" when using headphones but bad when using speakers?
Most likely you have heavy phase cancellations going on.
When using headphones you don't notice them because you listen to L/R isolated.
Use a correlation (phase) meter on your stereo bus and see what's going on there.
Heavy usage of stereo width enhances could for example be a problem...

[JFreak]

^^ this.

There is nothing wider than full left to full right. Plugins which claim to "enhance" stereo width are messing with phase.

Try to mix a song with all channels panned to either full left, dead center, or full right. Holy Trinity of panning positions. That will teach you important lesson.

[FunkzzaJ]

Hi Daryll. thx for chiming in here

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

You always have to be careful about

1. What exact software are you playing back through and does it add EQ or other effects. This also applies to any monitor controller the Pro Tools monitors are using. Phones and their media players may especially perform processing on the audio.

On the M1 mac, no playback audio processing is activated, neither EQ or other on the mac, nor the playback app used - the standard mac music playback app named Musik in Swedish.

However, in my own experience of the M1 mac speakers, I find the stereo image of any music from e.g. spotify, youtube, locally stored CD rips, etc, to be very wide. Pleasantly sounding and not particurlarly WET. Also, bass is kind of audible despite the very small speakers. So I suspect some processing going on here. But then again, my mix sounds terrible (WET) while other music sounds pleasant.

There are three studios:
-Home: Eleven rack and tannoy 802 monitors.
-Studio 1: Palmer monitor controller, genelec + XTZ monitors, treated and audio engineered room/monitor placement
-Studio 2: Palmer, wall-mounts, ultra-pro everything.
Mix and bounce sounding fine in all three, not wet.

2. Are comparisons done at the same SPL on similar monitors/phones or are you just hearing those differences? To start with compare using the exact same headphones... they need to be easy to drive for phones/portable devices. You have huge differences here, I am not sure why you expect a phone or laptop speakers to not sound very different from professional monitors or (hopefully) good headphones or earbuds. If you are targeting that playback you may need to remix for them.

I hear the differences. My mix is WET over the laptop speakers, and the phone speaker, while not wet on ATH-50 when fed from those two devices. I don't expect my laptop speakers to sound like in any of the studios, but I expect my mix to sound like other music from e.g. spotify, but is sounds very WET on the laptop speakers.

3. What exact source are you bouncing in Pro Tools? You have to be super careful that you have a bounce source selected so you are bouncing exactly what you are monitoring. This is a common mistake.

Main Output L-R as bouncing source.

-- And be careful say if you bounce out things with say final bus/master fader processing on them and then reimporting the bounce and have that track set up with final processing reapplied twice, likewise if you bounce at a point before that final processing when you reimport the bounced track make sure it still is going through the final processing.

Nothing on the PT Master track set to unity gain (fader at 0). Only one aux track with output set to the Main Output L-R. Only one master track. Nothing for the imported bounces to be processed.

Thanks for you comments, but I cant find anything reallly.

I hypothesize that the small speakers of the mac m1 with its trebly sound, along with possible mac-intrinsic widening/bass processing reveals some ****ty stuff I have done in the mix. If so, what to look for?

Or is transfering an audio file through google drive from PC to mac altering audio? well it shouldn't.

/T

[FunkzzaJ]

Originally Posted by pbthias

So: it always sounds "kinda right" when using headphones but bad when using speakers?
Most likely you have heavy phase cancellations going on.
When using headphones you don't notice them because you listen to L/R isolated.

It is bad (wet) n the mac book speakers but not on any of the three sets of monitors. Can it be the L-to-R speaker proximity, 30 cm macbook vs 2-3 meters, for the studio monitors, along with head distance being what impacts audible phase issues?

Headphones - got it. thx.

Originally Posted by pbthias

Use a correlation (phase) meter on your stereo bus and see what's going on there.

Applgying FLUX audio stereo tool on the master track. This takes me into terra incognito, I dont know how to interpret the visuals. Is there a quick answer, or some good source to dive into?

Originally Posted by pbthias

Heavy usage of stereo width enhances could for example be a problem...

I have som instances of YUM Spread light in haas mode of operation, in the mix. Used as widening, and sometimes as panning. I'll remove and see what happens. ...well hear, not see...

[FunkzzaJ]

Originally Posted by JFreak

^^ this.

There is nothing wider than full left to full right. Plugins which claim to "enhance" stereo width are messing with phase.

Try to mix a song with all channels panned to either full left, dead center, or full right. Holy Trinity of panning positions. That will teach you important lesson.

...hmmm...
guess I'll have to do that.

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by FunkzzaJ

Hi Daryll. thx for chiming in here

Thanks for you comments, but I cant find anything reallly.

I hypothesize that the small speakers of the mac m1 with its trebly sound, along with possible mac-intrinsic widening/bass processing reveals some ****ty stuff I have done in the mix. If so, what to look for?

Or is transfering an audio file through google drive from PC to mac altering audio? well it shouldn't.

/T

You have to just keep grinding away until you understand what you are hearing/what is happening as best as possible.

Just moving digital audio files elsewhere does not change them. You have a pile of highly feasible causes in front of you, you don't need to invoke witchcraft.

Apple Music player sure does processing. Sound "enhancer", EQ, sound check, ... You need to check all that crap is turned off. Then if you are using Airpods or similar yet more crap can happen with sound transparency, isolation, spacial stereo processing. Disable all that crap.

Then get some common playback set of easy to drive (so you can best drive them from an iPhone etc. directly) headphones or earbuds and get really used to them. Playing back on your Pro Tools systems, Mac, iPhone, whatever... and use that as a part of this testing. If that playback sounds wrong in comparing stuff then work out what is happening. Then once that is OK you can listen to computer or iPhone speakers etc. I have several pair of Etymotic IEMs that are revealing and I know very well, I'll use them for comparing playback on devices.. they are not what typical users are likely to be actually listening with, that's a different test, but they can help hear what is going on.

If you are targeting playback on small crappy speakers etc. You might want to put a small crappy speaker/device on the Pro Tools system directly as a fast way of doing tests.