Space AAX DSP not working

[HeySchlitz]

Originally Posted by LDS

Are DSP based reverbs really that critical? The only reason to use them on HDX is to preserve voices - using native plugins on aux channels in HDX will chew up additional voices. Other than that, running native reverbs on aux channels results in any latency being perceived as reverb pre delay.

I haven't really messed with this too much yet so maybe I need to go do some testing, but I like having a couple of Aux sends with a room and a plate for when I'm tracking. I just setup DSP enabled reverbs on my last project but then replaced them with plugins I know better when I started to mix. It breaks the DSP flow tho when I'm punching in at this point if I keep using the Aux with the native reverb on it. So as a workaround, I kept the Auxes with DSP verbs on them for tracking, then switched back to my mix aux sends when the overdubs were done. But this is probably the wrong way to do that?

So I was interested in having TL space since I've used it before....but would much prefer a solution that uses Valhalla, Seventh Heaven, UAD reverbs, etc. that still allows me to track with DSP while monitoring an Aux with a native reverb (or more dialed in DSP enabled verbs). Is there a good way to do that?

[Kyle Splittgerber]

Originally Posted by HeySchlitz

I haven't really messed with this too much yet so maybe I need to go do some testing, but I like having a couple of Aux sends with a room and a plate for when I'm tracking. I just setup DSP enabled reverbs on my last project but then replaced them with plugins I know better when I started to mix. It breaks the DSP flow tho when I'm punching in at this point if I keep using the Aux with the native reverb on it. So as a workaround, I kept the Auxes with DSP verbs on them for tracking, then switched back to my mix aux sends when the overdubs were done. But this is probably the wrong way to do that?

So I was interested in having TL space since I've used it before....but would much prefer a solution that uses Valhalla, Seventh Heaven, UAD reverbs, etc. that still allows me to track with DSP while monitoring an Aux with a native reverb (or more dialed in DSP enabled verbs). Is there a good way to do that?

Have you tried using DSP Mode Safe for this? Use an Aux with a native-only reverb, then Command + click the DSP Mode button to enable DSP Mode Safe. Now, any track in DSP Mode can route audio (i.e. Plate Send) to this Aux without the native-only reverb being automatically bypassed. More info on that here: https://youtu.be/q41E8odj3Vg?t=75

If you are using DSP Mode Safe and that's breaking the DSP flow, can you elaborate on what that means?

[HeySchlitz]

Originally Posted by Kyle Splittgerber

Have you tried using DSP Mode Safe for this? Use an Aux with a native-only reverb, then Command + click the DSP Mode button to enable DSP Mode Safe. Now, any track in DSP Mode can route audio (i.e. Plate Send) to this Aux without the native-only reverb being automatically bypassed. More info on that here: https://youtu.be/q41E8odj3Vg?t=75

If you are using DSP Mode Safe and that's breaking the DSP flow, can you elaborate on what that means?

Oh cool, thanks Kyle! I'm sure it's my lack of knowledge....I'll check this out.

Edit to add: Tried this tonight, exactly what I needed...VERY cool, thanks!

[Farhoof]

Speaking of DSP reverbs, there is a bug in Revibe DSP (18.10), when not automated your session recalls the wrong ER setting when reopened (depending on the preset). More details here https://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=407455

@Kyle or anyone else, can you confirm this is also happening on the Carbon? Will this ever be fixed at some point for HDX users?

Now with the hybrid engine coming we might give DSP another shot or ditch it altogether. Fixing this would certainly help.

(sorry for the slight hijack)

[Kyle Splittgerber]

Originally Posted by Farhoof

Speaking of DSP reverbs, there is a bug in Revibe DSP (18.10), when not automated your session recalls the wrong ER setting when reopened (depending on the preset). More details here https://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=407455

@Kyle or anyone else, can you confirm this is also happening on the Carbon? Will this ever be fixed at some point for HDX users?

Now with the hybrid engine coming we might give DSP another shot or ditch it altogether. Fixing this would certainly help.

(sorry for the slight hijack)

We'll make sure a bug gets logged on this. I haven't checked on Carbon yet, but based on the description I'd guess it occurs since this seems like a general bug with the AAX DSP version of Revibe. With Hybrid Engine (Carbon and HDX) you have the option of DSP Mode Safe to 'force' a plugin to stay Native. So, the upside is that it's easy to workaround this Revibe issue. Of course, the downside is that you aren't offloading processing from host to DSP when using that workaround.

[Kyle Splittgerber]

Originally Posted by HeySchlitz

Oh cool, thanks Kyle! I'm sure it's my lack of knowledge....I'll check this out.

Edit to add: Tried this tonight, exactly what I needed...VERY cool, thanks!

Great!

[dominicperry]

Originally Posted by Kyle Splittgerber

Hi Dominic,

In general, bugs and/or very specific limitations are not posted on our marketing pages. We post that information in the Read Me as we do with other products. We also post important information at www.avid.com/carbon-support from time to time, so that's another good resource. The Space limitation is not listed there, but wanted to mention the resource nonetheless.

Space splits the processing between DSP and host. The same is true for Nugen VisLM. This architecture created challenges with the Hybrid Engine model that were difficult to fix in time for the product release. So, rather than release Carbon with these bugs, we decided to limit the plugin's operation to Native only. This may change in the future if the user demand is high enough. So far it has not been a top request, but that could change.

You mentioned "Avid tying themselves in knots with endless complexity and failure to produce a coherent product set". Can you give some other examples of how Carbon has done this? The general feedback I hear is that Carbon provides a very coherent and straightforward experience in Pro Tools.

You also mentioned "Kyle answers only the questions on this forum where he can give a positive answer". I have answered a wide variety of product questions in this forum. The topics have included: bugs, bug fix updates, feature requests, limitations, how-to, future functionality, etc. If you look at my post history, you'll see that. If you want to post links to specific threads where you'd like me to chime in I am happy to do so. But, I don't shy away from criticism as it's integral to improving the product.

Kyle

Kyle, thanks for your considered and courteous reply.

I thought about going through all the Carbon forum posts and seeing what you had and hadn't replied to, but that's pretty extreme. If you're confident that you are responding to a wide range of questions and issues, then perhaps I'm mistaken, or at least selective about what I recall, and you have my apologies.

On the subject of Space AAX DSP, there are a few endemic issues here. Marketing - the pages on which you advertise your products - should reflect reality.
This plug-in, paid for by people, doesn't work on Carbon. It should say so on the product page - also know as a 'marketing' page. Leaving out undesirable shortfalls is not honest.
Secondly, it should work, but it doesn't, but you only intend to fix it if enough people make a fuss? I can't tell you how wrong-headed this reasoning is. If you can't see that, or if Avid as an organisation can't, then I'm not going to be able to change the way things are done by complaining here.

As far as the 'coherent product set' comment goes, the limitations of compatible versions of MacOS, lack of external firmware upgrade control (meaning only recent and very buggy versions of PT work with Carbon), proprietary AVB standard, 'spare' Ethernet port, no product roadmap, it all just adds up to something I can't feel confident about buying. But that's ok, I haven't bought one. Others have, and I wish them luck. And I hope you keep improving it and over time there's a good version of MacOS and PT which align to make it super-solid.

Dominic

[Kyle Splittgerber]

Originally Posted by dominicperry

Kyle, thanks for your considered and courteous reply.

I thought about going through all the Carbon forum posts and seeing what you had and hadn't replied to, but that's pretty extreme. If you're confident that you are responding to a wide range of questions and issues, then perhaps I'm mistaken, or at least selective about what I recall, and you have my apologies.

On the subject of Space AAX DSP, there are a few endemic issues here. Marketing - the pages on which you advertise your products - should reflect reality.
This plug-in, paid for by people, doesn't work on Carbon. It should say so on the product page - also know as a 'marketing' page. Leaving out undesirable shortfalls is not honest.
Secondly, it should work, but it doesn't, but you only intend to fix it if enough people make a fuss? I can't tell you how wrong-headed this reasoning is. If you can't see that, or if Avid as an organisation can't, then I'm not going to be able to change the way things are done by complaining here.

As far as the 'coherent product set' comment goes, the limitations of compatible versions of MacOS, lack of external firmware upgrade control (meaning only recent and very buggy versions of PT work with Carbon), proprietary AVB standard, 'spare' Ethernet port, no product roadmap, it all just adds up to something I can't feel confident about buying. But that's ok, I haven't bought one. Others have, and I wish them luck. And I hope you keep improving it and over time there's a good version of MacOS and PT which align to make it super-solid.

Dominic

Hi Dominic,

All good. Thanks for apologizing.

Regarding Space, I appreciate the input and I can speak with the team about your suggestion. The decision to not fix the bug yet is really about priorities. The team works hard to provide the best experience they can and to fix the most urgent issues as soon as possible. And, it's not that we don't want to ever fix the issue. It's that we don't want to fix it before making improvements that can benefit a larger number of users. For example, preamp control from Pro Tools has been a much more popular feature request from users I’ve spoken with. But, let’s test that to see if that’s changed...

For all of you who have a Carbon unit, which is more important to you: Controlling Carbon preamps from Pro Tools or enabling Space to run on AAX DSP?

Regarding the complaints about the product, I'll address each one:

Limitations of compatible versions of MacOS
We support both Catalina and Big Sur. Can you articulate why this is too limiting?

Lack of external firmware upgrade control (meaning only recent and very buggy versions of PT work with Carbon)
Carbon includes Pro Tools software which provides the firmware update on launch, so there’s not a scenario where a user can’t upgrade firmware. Every new hardware product requires matching software to run its new features. This is going to be the same for any hardware product that requires software support (not just audio products). So, implying you can’t run old versions of Pro Tools with Carbon isn’t really a drawback - it’s just technically impossible.

Proprietary AVB standard
I assume the downside here is that you can’t currently connect it to 3P AVB interfaces? Or, is it something else?

'Spare' Ethernet port
Is the implication here is that you want to connect it to a second Carbon device?

No product roadmap
In general, we don’t share roadmap plans. In my experience, this is standard for the vast majority of companies. Are there companies building audio interfaces who have publicly shared their roadmap?

What audio interface(s) do you use today?

Last, I know some resellers offer demo units. If you ever decide to check one out, and get hands on experience, I’d be curious to hear your feedback.

[Matt Hepworth]

Originally Posted by Kyle Splittgerber

For all of you who have a Carbon unit, which is more important to you: Controlling Carbon preamps from Pro Tools or enabling Space to run on AAX DSP?

#1 Expandability
Only 16 ins at 96kHz is way too few to be usable for tracking a band.
But at 48kHz you're fighting the high latency that most 3rd party AAX DSP plugins add.

#2 Space DSP
DSP convo verb is a must since native latency is so high. At 256 buffer it's about 20ms in to out.
Even if it were only for reverb 20ms is a lot of predelay...

#3 Preamp recall
It'd be nice, but I use outboard pres for the most part.

Regarding the complaints about the product, I'll address each one:

Limitations of compatible versions of MacOS
We support both Catalina and Big Sur. Can you articulate why this is too limiting?

Sure would be nice if more tried and true macOS versions worked (even if only Mojave), but since it's reliant on inbuilt AVB in macOS we're stuck with fledgling OS versions. Can't fault AVID for that, though.

[HeySchlitz]

Originally Posted by Kyle Splittgerber

For all of you who have a Carbon unit, which is more important to you: Controlling Carbon preamps from Pro Tools or enabling Space to run on AAX DSP?

Now knowing about DSP mode safe, I think prioritizing other feature requests is a good call. Controlling Carbon preamps wins for sure.

Other features I'd also rather see than Space support:
- Being able to set the Mac system volume when routed through the Carbon.
- A small footprint expansion unit that acts as a monitor controller with a headphone output and guitar input. Since you've added Carbon preamp control, I I no longer need to sit near the Carbon
- Looks like the levels move when PT isn't launched but something is connected to an input (like a keyboard)....being able to monitor that would be sweet for when you just want to play but don't want to launch everything. Bonus points for supporting ADAT inputs too. (I also want a pony).

Carbon has been a stellar interface! It's really well thought out, sounds awesome and I'm sure you guys have great plans for it....looking forward to seeing where it goes but it's great already IMO!