Digi and the future

[undertone]

Originally Posted by Ian Palmer

Computers still lack the power to deal with massive sessions and all the peripherals.

There are a couple of valid reasons to use HD systems (like wanting to be compatible with other TDM users) but DSP power isn't one of them - anymore. An 18 month old MacPro (the least expensive 2008 model) has as much power as a HD7 system...

TL Space, for example, will take up an entire chip on HD but will pretty much use up all of an LE system's resources.

IIRR, Digi has stated that they are working on making LE systems as efficient as some other native, already exiting DAWs: the current CPU efficiency of LE systems can't be used as a valid reference for what can be done today. "An entire chip" simply doesn't represent much DSP power in these days, and actually never did, that's why large HD systems have dozens of them.

Why do we need to have Pros in proper studios using the same equipment as some wannabe in their bedroom.

WIth all due respect, I think the question is wrong. We don't "need" it, the important part is that it's already happening, and has been happening for a while.

Different tools taylored to do different jobs.

The world is very, very different today - in terms of computing/DSP power - from what it was back when HD systems were taylored. The first Pro Tools system was taylored circa 20 years ago. HD systems were introduced circa 7 years ago, and probably designed a couple of years before that.

HD systems have already been redesigned once (due to Motorola chip supply problems, according to Wikipedia). These systems wouldn't have been designed the way they are if they would be 'taylored' today.

Current computers are of course designed around current chips. This is why DAWs needing multiple 3rd part cards are about to become obsolete the same way tape has become obsolete. Of course both tape and HD systems still work, but let's not fool ourselves to believe that computers today aren't capable of running massive sessions; they are. One of several reasons for this is their constant, dynamic re-allocation of available DSP power.

This explains why people can mix an album on a portable Mac, or why one can open dozens of the all-new Lexicon plugin on a new computer, something which isn't possible on the "dedicated hardware" sister product, PCM96.

When it comes to DSP power, "dedicated hardware" simply isn't the big thing anymore, due to to Moore's so called 18-month "law", and due to the nature of how the digital world develops.


Unless latency in the sub-millisecond range us important for you, latency isn't the bottleneck either, which is great: features, workflow, stability - and of course, personal likes and dislikes - is what's most important these days.

[jpbears1]

Originally Posted by DigiTechSupt

Code and electronic engineering around the chip are years in the making.

That should explain it!

Especially if the code in question is hand coded Assembly language!!!

[dtrusz]

Undertone nailed it here, particularly in response to this quote:

''Why do we need to have Pros in proper studios using the same equipment as some wannabe in their bedroom?''

I had spoken earlier in the thread of some colleagues that have made the switch over to Logic and one of the things they're on about most is the fact that they can keep a cloned rig at home. So the 'Pro' is in their 'bedroom' working zero compromise in relation to their office/studio. This is very appealing to me. I have an LE rig at home and 9 times out of 10 when I attempt to use it is far too removed from the HD rig to do anything substantial. I'm talking about ADC, power allocation these types of things. And few of us I'm guessing can afford an HD rig at home.

I also echo the comments regarding the death of DSP cards. The Mac is there in terms of power, we just Digi to give us the software to really take advantage of it, and I'm sure they're working on that.

[Keybeeetsss]

Originally Posted by Ian Palmer

I still have my doubts about this. Computers still lack the power to deal with massive sessions and all the peripherals. HD's biggest advantage is still the processing power with the additional CPUs on the cards. I doubt even the most powerful Mac is even close to be being able to mix an entire feature film with all the plugins and tracks needed. I think this applies to post-production more than it does to music.

TL Space, for example, will take up an entire chip on HD but will pretty much use up all of an LE system's resources. That's even before we've added EQ, Compression and Limiting to the mix.

This statement is really wrong in a lot of aspects... It is now fact tried & tested that it would take an HD8 rig to keep up with an i7; I have a Studio in Memphis & Nashville; Memphis>i7>LE; Nashville>G5>HD3>
I now can not & choose not to work on the HD rig for the reason of its not powerful enough... Just for ex. since u mentioned it, I do 90% gospel &/or ccm records so true I don't have 150+ Audio track sessions but the average 90+ tracks or so which is why I have the CPTK on the LE rig; I ALWAYS open 4 TL Space plugs & put a Saturator plug on EVERY track before I even start mixing, then I usually have @ least 20 instantiates of Auto tune 5 for backing vocals just to keep them pocketed & don't let me start on eq's/comps & VI's along with Vienna Ensemble & most the time can get away with this @ 64samples during mix; Heck I actually get mad now when I can't do it @64...& with all that open @ 64buffer rate, CPU meter may jump to 65-70% As U said, no way I can open this many TL Spaces on my HD3 rig & definitely not Auto tunes like that... tried & failed

Originally Posted by dtrusz

I'm surprised at the number of skeptics regarding current and future CPU power. These guys, one in particular are running massive Logic systems on 8core Macs and giggling all the way. To some degree this is not the future, people are doing this now.

Same thing I was saying; I too have some film score associates & they are logic all day long; I for 1 wish that DIGI would get it 2gether or even just pretend to b/c I LOVE PT & won't even try another DAW to be honest just b/c I don't wanna go thru the changes etc. So being that Native is incredibly powerful now, & the fact that all other Native DAWs or DAWs period (because they're all native) they should really stop the crippling of LE; as said, HD isn't going anywhere because true MOST film scoring & mixing facilities are still gonna be HD pretty much & too as said, live shows & the VENUE is just the way to go...

Originally Posted by dtrusz

Undertone nailed it here, particularly in response to this quote:

''Why do we need to have Pros in proper studios using the same equipment as some wannabe in their bedroom?''

the 'Pro' is in their 'bedroom' working zero compromise in relation to their office/studio. This is very appealing to me. I have an LE rig at home and 9 times out of 10 when I attempt to use it is far too removed from the HD rig to do anything substantial. I'm talking about ADC, power allocation these types of things. And few of us I'm guessing can afford an HD rig at home.

Just thought this should be said/quoted again... Pretty much EVERY PRO these days have an LE/MP rig of some sort to keep working biet on the plane, in the kitchen, on the crapper, or the bedroom which I do quite a bit on my Bedtop with an Mbox2 Mini

[Bambison]

All I know is this, every "wannabe" who only has an LE rig and who's worked on my TDM rig has drooled at the efficiency, smoothness and speed of my system. This list of "wannabes" includes several persons who produced/wrote chartmaking tracks and, immediately thereafter, purchased TDM rigs of their own.

[tamasdragon]

I really hope that digi getting their acts together, and give us really competitive or as we wait, superior product, first, softwarewise.
I cannot beleive that they cannot see the threat coming from the logic+apogee world.
TD

[Keybeeetsss]

Originally Posted by Bambison

All I know is this, every "wannabe" who only has an LE rig and who's worked on my TDM rig has drooled at the efficiency, smoothness and speed of my system. This list of "wannabes" includes several persons who produced/wrote chartmaking tracks and, immediately thereafter, purchased TDM rigs of their own.

Well I guess u don't know a lot of people these days... Don't mean that as smart as it may sound b/c u of course can't see my expression but I factually know many going in the other direction/ME being 1 of them; I don't talk about what I do on forums but since u brought out persons producing /writing chartmaking tracks, I as of rite now have the #1, #3 & just recently dropped from #6 Gospel albums in the country on Billboards & again I now steer away from the HD rig... & again I know many others that have done the same...

[Digitopian]

Originally Posted by Bambison

All I know is this, every "wannabe" who only has an LE rig and who's worked on my TDM rig has drooled at the efficiency, smoothness and speed of my system. This list of "wannabes" includes several persons who produced/wrote chartmaking tracks and, immediately thereafter, purchased TDM rigs of their own.

How many years ago was this?
or
Did these "wannabe's" Have a modern (mulit-core) setup optimized for protools?

Are these people considered wannabe's simply because they ran LE instead of HD?

I owned a single core G5 with a 002 in 2003. It just didn't have the power to pile on the plugins the way I wanted so when I opened up a commercial facility I purchased a HD 2 accel rig, and had much more processing power, more track count, low latency recording, and beat detective. At the time these four things were not possible on a Le rig. In 2008 I sold my studio along with the HD 2 rig. I bought a quad-core mac, a digi 003, and a toolkit. Instantly had more processing power than the HD 2 rig, comparable track count, multitrack beat detective and the ability to record with a hardware buffer set at 64 samples. Modern computers with multiple core cpu's are extremely powerful. For music production they are highly effective. My current system is "efficient, smooth and speedy". It just is...

What i do miss about my HD rig:

1. Comprehensive import session data capabilities
2. The ability to expand my simultaneous track count as high as I need if I am willing to fork out the cash
3. ADC, although I am missing this less thanks to mellomuse ATA (50$)
4. Converters, but third party converters can be tacked on to an 003 rig as well
I don't miss waiting for dsp re-allocation once I've added that one extra plugin that tips the scales forcing me to take a coffee break.

With the exception of being able to expand my track count beyond 18 simultaneous tracks, it seems that everything else that I miss about HD could be resolved by simple De-crippling the native software, and as far as hardware is concerned if Digi..errr..Avid were to offer me a expandable option where I could choose better converters (from digi that are better than the current stock converters in a 003), and additional simultaneous track count capabilities I would buy it in a heartbeat.

I am also wondering if now that I am back to working on a LE system if that relegates me back to a "wannabe" status. I mean seriously, how much more of an Elitist attitude can somebody have.

Again to sum up, I am talking about music production. I realize the needs for TDM in post and live settings. It makes perfect sense. Crippling native solutions however does not.

Edit: Kb pretty much just covered this but he must type faster than me!

[Bambison]

Originally Posted by Keybeeetsss

Well I guess u don't know a lot of people these days... Don't mean that as smart as it may sound b/c u of course can't see my expression but I factually know many going in the other direction/ME being 1 of them; I don't talk about what I do on forums but since u brought out persons producing /writing chartmaking tracks, I as of rite now have the #1, #3 & just recently dropped from #6 Gospel albums in the country on Billboards & again I now steer away from the HD rig... & again I know many others that have done the same...

Geesh, Keybeeetsss, guess I hit a nerve. My intention wasn't to provoke. It was to state my experience with TDM versus LE. I'm sorry my comment offended. Again, my experience suggests that the "wannabe" LE users immediately move up to TDM as soon as they can afford to. Further, I wasn't touting my chart success. I was touting theirs. My quotation of the word "wannabe" and mention of their success was meant to point out the condescending nature of the term. As such, I was sorta siding with you. Well, I was taking both sides, really... Whichever way, geesh, lighten up.

[Keybeeetsss]

Originally Posted by Bambison

Geesh, Keybeeetsss, guess I hit a nerve. My intention wasn't to provoke.

Hey Bambi, no u didn't & I didn't take it as such... Thatz actually why I started of saying

Don't mean that as smart as it may sound b/c u of course can't see my expression

I get what ur saying but as I said, I know ones that are going different routes is all...