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  #1  
Old 08-23-2005, 09:12 AM
Rick Sanchez Rick Sanchez is offline
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Default To bass manage or not to bass manage

Mixing for Home Theatre. Use Bass Management for monitoring in the mix environmnet or not? Is there any consensus on this issue?

Editorial 5.1 pre-mixing for the dub stage: I assume that for a theatrical trailer you would not want to use bass management when doing pre-mixes to be sent to the dub stage.
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  #2  
Old 08-23-2005, 09:26 AM
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Default Re: To bass manage or not to bass manage

rule of thumb: bass manage for home DVD release. do NOT bass manage for theatrical. i wouldn't even do it in pre-dub listening. it will never play like that on a theatrical mix.
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  #3  
Old 08-24-2005, 12:08 PM
audiobrad audiobrad is offline
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Default Re: To bass manage or not to bass manage

Hmmm...I'm not sure I understand your discussion here. "Bass managment" - as I use the terminology - is the process for redirecting the low-end from your satellite speakers to your subwoofer. Unless your satellites are full range, you HAVE to bass manage. It is a function of the speaker system, not the mix. In the theater, the sub is dedicated to the LFE track. In home theater (and many studios), your system uses bass management to redirect everything below 80 Hz to the sub because most satellites can't handle anything below that very well. So the sub is doing 2 jobs - playing the LFE track AND providing the low-end for the satellites. So assuming you have limited bandwidth satellites, why would you ever turn off bass management and throw away your low end? Forgive me if I am stating the obvious. Perhaps I don't understand the question.
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Old 08-24-2005, 02:51 PM
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Default Re: To bass manage or not to bass manage

brad,

you are correct in calling it bass re-direct. it is something that happens on the monitor side.

most cinemas do not have bass management. the SR•D from the 35MM print has AC-3 packets stored on them that send 6 discreet channels. (it is the same for DVD cinema play back and it AC-3 stream) if you are mixing for the theater, then you should have (virtually) full range monitors. my monitors go down to 35Hz, or is it 30. you shouldn't be mixing for the cinema if you have 4" monitors that only go down to 55-50Hz. if you employ bass re-direct and send things into the Lfe, then you won't be monitoring how it will playback in a theater. also, i often "redirect" low frequency material from a track to the SUB by setting up a buss with a hi-pass filter.

if you have small speakers and a sub, then you wouldn't be approved by DOLBY anyway, and you'd be checking your mix and printmastering on a DUB stage that was properly set up for that environment.

the blue sky system, is just that a system. and, yes, it emplys bass re-direct to egt to a "full range" it is because the satellites are not full range. most TV and home DVD playback systems employ bass re-direct. theatrical does not.
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Old 08-24-2005, 03:27 PM
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Default Re: To bass manage or not to bass manage

Good discussion, Tom. I'd like to see your place some time.

Most of what you said makes sense, although I have a couple nits:

"if you employ bass re-direct and send things into the Lfe" ---If you are referring to bass management and not the routing of low end to the lfe track, then actually you're sending it to the subwoofer which happens to carry the lfe track.

As you pointed out, a satellite + sub is not the same as a truly full-range monitor, but in a properly callibrated system, I still would never turn off my sub regardless of whether it's going to a dub stage or not. Maybe others do it differently, but I prefer to make my own decisions about that bottom octave before anyone else gets their hands on it.

Just my $.02.

Brad
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Old 08-24-2005, 03:56 PM
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Default Re: To bass manage or not to bass manage

Quote:
"if you employ bass re-direct and send things into the Lfe" ---If you are referring to bass management and not the routing of low end to the lfe track, then actually you're sending it to the subwoofer which happens to carry the lfe track.
not sure what you mean here... bass re-direct is a monitor (or controller) thing. by, sending to the LFE, i mean mixing in PT. so, yes, "in a sense", i am "bass managing" some content of my mixes by sending some sounds out to an LFE bus and setting up a hipass filter to make sure it goes into the output for the sub. in other instances, i am just sending BOOM fx to it.

Quote:
As you pointed out, a satellite + sub is not the same as a truly full-range monitor, but in a properly callibrated system, I still would never turn off my sub regardless of whether it's going to a dub stage or not. Maybe others do it differently, but I prefer to make my own decisions about that bottom octave before anyone else gets their hands on it.
brad, i am not suggesting turning off the sub. in film mixing, you turn off bass re-direct. you don't LOSE anything by doing that, as long as you can monitor the content of your mix accurately. as far as making your own decisions, if you were set up for a theatrical, you would not by using bass re-direct on a dub stage. so, it is a mistake to be listening to it in your room with bass re-direct engaged and make judgments about it as it will not play back that way.
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  #7  
Old 08-24-2005, 06:02 PM
audiobrad audiobrad is offline
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Default Re: To bass manage or not to bass manage

Interesting Tom. I might learn something new here! On the first point, why do people choose to send regular program material (like music for example) to the LFE anyway? I guess you could make the case that in the theater, the "full range" speakers might not kick out the boom you want, or you need the extra headroom of the LFE track. In home theater (satellite/sub systems), it's going to end up in the sub anyway. So if you know it's for DVD release, and headroom isn't an issue, is there another reason to route non-LFE material to the LFE track? I've tested major release DVDs and found some that use the LFE to some extent for everything, and others that reserve it for the "booms" only.

On the second point, I can see that I misunderstood you. But if you had full-range speakers, why would you use bass re-direct (which I assume crosses at 80Hz) in the first place? (Unless you are simulating a satellite/sub system).


Brad
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  #8  
Old 08-24-2005, 08:07 PM
Craig F Craig F is offline
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Default Re: To bass manage or not to bass manage

this bad boy is a big full range 40Hz to 19kHz system
http://www.klipsch.com/product/produ...ue&rmore=False

now here is the sub 27Hz to 240Hz
http://www.klipsch.com/product/product.aspx?cid=904

the sub is almost a full octave lower in efficient range

now for the story I was told on why to always use bass managment:

One year an awards show ( I don't remember the patellar one Oscar or Grammy I think) the show was mixed in surround w/o the use of bass management. the Decca Tree picked up the rubel of the set changes backstage but sense the person(s) mixing the show were not using bass management they did not know they were sending out product w/ rather annoying low frequency information from back stage to the populous at large.

Now I am not witness to this but I do believe that this could have happened so all of the Dub Stages I am responsible for have some form of TMH bass management installed
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  #9  
Old 08-24-2005, 08:22 PM
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Default Re: To bass manage or not to bass manage

Quote:
On the second point, I can see that I misunderstood you. But if you had full-range speakers, why would you use bass re-direct (which I assume crosses at 80Hz) in the first place? (Unless you are simulating a satellite/sub system).
you wouldn't...unless, as you say, you were checking for home or home theater compatibility. in other words, if you know ultimate destination will be bass managed. then you MUST.

dolby recommends 120Hz

you also might want to re-direct in the event there is a low end bump that you want to investigate on a track that is not being sent at all to the SUB. mic stands, feet, you know, any low end bump.


as the other stuff...share 5.1 mix secrets with competition that is only a 7 iron away ???

just kidding, tom lindquist has referred people to me since he has been with you. let me just say, if you got it, and want to use it, USE it. let creativity and your knowledge of post and PT be your guide. there, how's that for a (non) answer. music is tricky. i certainly have done it with stereo and with split stem music mixes. sometimes a bit of a struggle to get that bass and kick to sound just right while sending some to the sub. sometimes compression or mulitband, or eq sculpting helps you out here. i find FX are a breeze this way.
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  #10  
Old 08-24-2005, 08:23 PM
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Default Re: To bass manage or not to bass manage

Craig,
What "dub stages" in town are you responsible for? And what do they have for monitors? Mixing for what type of program?
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