Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > Legacy Products > Pro Tools 9

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-26-2011, 12:47 PM
twix twix is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Sarasota, FL
Posts: 272
Default Delay Compensation + Master Track

Unfortunately, I typically end up mastering my own stuff. Near the end of the mix I will add my mastering plugins. Sometimes I use the Waves L316 limiter. The delay on it is 6207 and with the other plugins I am using on the master fader, it ends up being 8809 samples. Obviously, the long delay compensation only goes to 4000 something. Normally I wouldn't think this is a big deal because it's on the master fader and if that's delayed 5000 extra samples, it should matter little.

BUT..... the extra 5000 (rounding the number) samples ends up messing with the automation of plugins. For instance, when I automate a bypass for a plugin, it bypass's the automation 5000 samples earlier than the actual automation point. Pretty annoying, but the work-around I found was to disable the delay compensation (control command click) for the master fader. The automation works fine at that point.

I guess the question I present is... Is this a known issue or is this just the behavior and is already known? And, is this the best workaround for this problem?

Thanks,
adaM


Mac OS 10.6.2
Protools 9.0.5
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-26-2011, 01:19 PM
BillDog793 BillDog793 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Orange County/Los Angeles
Posts: 158
Default Re: Delay Compensation + Master Track

Hey, as far as the first part of your question, I honestly have no idea. But, I would recommend that you bounce the song to a stereo WAV file, with nothing on the Master Fader. Then you can make all the tracks inactive or create a mastering session, and import your stereo WAV files for mastering processing.

Pretty much everyone I know does mastering as a second step rather than both at one time. Hope this helps!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-26-2011, 02:06 PM
twix twix is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Sarasota, FL
Posts: 272
Default Re: Delay Compensation + Master Track

Well, since turning off the compensation on the master fader, automation behaves correctly, so really, at this point, it seems to be a non-issue.
I was more curious as for an explanation from Avid or members in the know since there wasn't anything I could find in the manual about the issue.

Appreciate the response, but the reason I don't bounce down a naked .wav (unless it's going to a mastering engineer) or .mp3 and then do a separate session for mastering is because it's more steps that waste time. When I can just do the same thing in the session that I am going to do in the mastering session anyway. If I have to tweak the mix, which happens a dozen times per mix, I don't have to bounce, import, bounce. Plus, I can hear what the mastering is doing to the mix and make adjustments accordingly in the mix.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-26-2011, 03:06 PM
Dism Dism is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: Delay Compensation + Master Track

Quote:
Originally Posted by twix View Post
If I have to tweak the mix, which happens a dozen times per mix, I don't have to bounce, import, bounce. Plus, I can hear what the mastering is doing to the mix and make adjustments accordingly in the mix.
This is why it is integral to commit to your mix before mastering, and why most mix engineers send out to a mastering house.

Mastering is not a part of mixing, and nor should you be mixing for mastering. The whole point of mastering is to enhance an already acceptable mix. If you have to keep going back to your original mix to "tweak" it for mastering, then you are defeating the point of mastering. Your mix should already be acceptable to your ears before you get to the mastering stage. If you begin mastering and start noticing flaws in the mix, then the mix was no good in the first place, or your mastering job isn't right for the mix. To me, this is wasting far more time than the few minutes it takes to create a bounce and import into a new session.

This is another classic case of our technology taking our standards down. Just because we "can" doesn't mean we "should."
__________________

D
a n t h e I n c r e d i b l e S o u n d M a n

"Svetlana" v1 - 4.2GHz i7, 16GB RAM, OSX 10.7.4
Liquid Saffire 56 - PT10.2 - BFD2, VCC, Duende Native, Play 3.0

_C U R R E N T-D V E R B-S C O R E:515
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-26-2011, 03:23 PM
EGS's Avatar
EGS EGS is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,706
Default Re: Delay Compensation + Master Track

Quote:
Originally Posted by twix View Post
...I can just do the same thing in the session that I am going to do in the mastering session anyway...
Focus your energies and ears on the mix and make it great (a difficult process to be sure). Then, shift your focus to getting great final sounds and levels. The first thing to do during mastering (that cannot typically be done during a mix/quasi mastering pass) is to sergically tame peaks (automation or audiosuite gain). This will prepare for processing stages to follow. Apply EQ/peak limiting/peak multi-band/compression/peak limiting again/dither (only AS NEEDED) during mastering. Use excellent monitors and "get to know them" over time. Reference time-honored music in the same genre. Loud/soft, big/medium/small speakers plus headphones. Take breaks. There is a reason pros operate this way.
__________________
Desktop build: PT 2020.5 / Win 11 / i9-11900K @ 5.1GHz / 64GB / 4TB NVMe PCIe 4 / Gigabyte Z590 Vision D / PreSonus 2626
Laptop: PT 2020.5 / Win 11 / i5-12500H / 16GB / 1TB NVMe / Lenovo IdeaPad 5i Pro / U-PHORIA UMC1820
Ancient/Legacy (still works!): PT 5 & 6 / OS9 & OSX / Mac G4 / DIGI 001
Click for audio/video demo
Click for resume
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-26-2011, 03:38 PM
CME CME is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ardmore OK
Posts: 3,207
Default Re: Delay Compensation + Master Track

I have to agree. Even though I break that rule and sometimes mix through some sort of "mastering" plug on the master buss, for a quick mixdown. It always turns out best if I spend a bit more time on the mix, and then master separately. YMMV
__________________
Dell T5810. Harrison Mixbus 32C. Haven't used PT since 2015 and never been happier.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-26-2011, 04:15 PM
[email protected] stvbn@yahoo.com is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 111
Default Re: Delay Compensation + Master Track

Why not get a great mix, print stems of drums,lead vocals, BU vox, Bass, Guitars and Keys, and FX, then master with the stereo stems, applying mastering techniques them and avoid master delay compensation issues?
You will get more controll with this "mastering" approach."

-SteveB.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-26-2011, 04:31 PM
TOM@METRO's Avatar
TOM@METRO TOM@METRO is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 17,641
Default Re: Delay Compensation + Master Track

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dism View Post
This is why it is integral to commit to your mix before mastering, and why most mix engineers send out to a mastering house.

Mastering is not a part of mixing, and nor should you be mixing for mastering. The whole point of mastering is to enhance an already acceptable mix. If you have to keep going back to your original mix to "tweak" it for mastering, then you are defeating the point of mastering. Your mix should already be acceptable to your ears before you get to the mastering stage. If you begin mastering and start noticing flaws in the mix, then the mix was no good in the first place, or your mastering job isn't right for the mix. To me, this is wasting far more time than the few minutes it takes to create a bounce and import into a new session.

This is another classic case of our technology taking our standards down. Just because we "can" doesn't mean we "should."
This is all correct, and I agree with a big "plus one".

If you find it impossible to have a separate set of ears do the mastering for you, at least do it with fresh ears after a good long break.
__________________
~ tom thomas

Formerly hobotom

Pro Tools Ultimate 2024 HDX Hybrid
HD Omni and 192 I/Os
Windows 10
Intel Hexcore i7
All Samsung Pro SSDs
Ampex MM1200 2" 24 trk tape
Outboard: UREI, Eventide, Lexicon, Yamaha, TC Electronics, Orban, ART, EchoAudio, Dolby, Hughes, API, Neve, Audio Arts, BBE, Aphex, Berringer, MOTU, dbx, Allison, etc.
Plug-ins: Too many to talk about.

www.metrostudios.com
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-26-2011, 05:48 PM
Keybeeetsss's Avatar
Keybeeetsss Keybeeetsss is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Memphis
Posts: 8,759
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dism View Post
This is why it is integral to commit to your mix before mastering, and why most mix engineers send out to a mastering house.

Mastering is not a part of mixing, and nor should you be mixing for mastering. The whole point of mastering is to enhance an already acceptable mix. If you have to keep going back to your original mix to "tweak" it for mastering, then you are defeating the point of mastering. Your mix should already be acceptable to your ears before you get to the mastering stage. If you begin mastering and start noticing flaws in the mix, then the mix was no good in the first place, or your mastering job isn't right for the mix. To me, this is wasting far more time than the few minutes it takes to create a bounce and import into a new session.

This is another classic case of our technology taking our standards down. Just because we "can" doesn't mean we "should."
Love this post!!! I thought I said it!..

Sent from EPIC 4G using Tapatalk On'eim...
__________________
MYSPACE ON'EIM
LAUTEN MICS & ME
DA'TUBE ON'EIM

'IS TAMARA HOME'
NO, SHE'S WITH
HOBO KEY
'' (that dopey green thing)

('we' must start using pronouns)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-27-2011, 02:41 PM
twix twix is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Sarasota, FL
Posts: 272
Default Re: Delay Compensation + Master Track

Thanks for the all input guys, but really, I wasn't looking for comments on my workflow. I wanted to put forth the delay issue I found (which still hasn't been addressed).

but ok, a few things on my workflow:

In a perfect world I would love to send out every mix I do to a mastering engineer, I love having a great mastering guy with decades of experience and gear to add to the mix, and on certain projects with the right budget that happens, but the world isn't perfect and for whatever reason my clients end up liking my mastering. I end up finishing my mix to near done and then apply the mastering plugins at that point. Of course sometimes (read: most of the time) the mix changes a bit when I put on some mastering compression, eq and limiter. Cool, I make some small changes to the mix and great. Clients make small changes, listen, make changes, listen, make changes (repeat)...... and cool, it's done. In truth, there isn't any difference if I do the mastering in the session or if I bounce and import it into another session (except for the wasted time).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dism View Post
This is why it is integral to commit to your mix before mastering, and why most mix engineers send out to a mastering house.

Mastering is not a part of mixing, and nor should you be mixing for mastering. The whole point of mastering is to enhance an already acceptable mix. If you have to keep going back to your original mix to "tweak" it for mastering, then you are defeating the point of mastering. Your mix should already be acceptable to your ears before you get to the mastering stage. If you begin mastering and start noticing flaws in the mix, then the mix was no good in the first place, or your mastering job isn't right for the mix. To me, this is wasting far more time than the few minutes it takes to create a bounce and import into a new session.

This is another classic case of our technology taking our standards down. Just because we "can" doesn't mean we "should."
10 years ago I would have agreed with this statement, and may have even said it myself, but today, I do not. Sometimes we have to move with the technology and let it take us to other areas and do different things in different ways. One thing I have learned is that there is never a wrong way to do something, the "rules" are always changing, which is why there really isn't any rules. How many times have you done a mix, sent it to mastering, got it back and said "damn, I kinda wish such and such was louder or lower or whatever". So to me, tweaking a mix while listening to the mastering doesn't let technology take standards down, but instead raises the standards, by allowing more fine tuning. In general, technology hasn't taken standards down, there may have been trade-offs during the digital transition, but at the end of the day, technology has made this industry go through a remarkable evolution and in many ways, a revolution. I would also argue that mastering is more than just "enhancing" a good mix, especially now days. Good mastering is far more important than that, in many ways it's taking a mix (good mix or bad mix) to a whole new level that you wouldn't get there from just good mixing alone. Which is why I would rather do it myself unless I can send it to a great mastering engineer.

I think after 20 years of recording and mixing experience, 15 years of Protools experience, a Grammy nomination and a dozen or so platinum and gold records, my workflow (which works great) has some validity to it.

adaM
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Delay Compensation on Master? JazzyJ 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 3 12-19-2011 12:10 PM
Manual Delay Compensation on Master Fader? browniespeaks Tips & Tricks 11 05-05-2010 10:34 AM
Bypass Delay Compensation on Master Bus? Dizzi45Z Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 6 05-16-2008 09:15 PM
Can you disable Delay Compensation on Master? AINSLIE Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 7 02-15-2008 09:56 AM
Delay Compensation on Master Fader musicnutt2000 Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 1 09-12-2006 04:08 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:04 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com