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  #1  
Old 10-22-2003, 02:21 PM
zboy2854 zboy2854 is offline
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Default Native system over TDM WOW!

Hey all,

With the power of CPU's growing to where they are now, I decided to do a little informal DSP power comparison between the MixPlus systems we have at work and my 001 system at home. I basically instantiated as many Bombfactory 1176 plugins as I could on a 24 bit 44.1K session with audio on every track. On the MixPlus system (1 Mix Core, 1 Mix Farm) I was able to get 27 instances of the 1176 during playback before I ran out of DSP. On my Athlon 2000+ XP native system I was able to get 110 instances (no that's not a typo) before I ran out of DSP. That's right, 22 tracks with 5 1176's on each track playing back audio. I'm sure the new G5's are just as impressive.

As someone who was considering getting a TDM system for home, it seems to me the only reasons these days to spend all that money on a hardware DSP system is for more tracks, expandable inputs and outputs, and latency advantages. However, with the $4-8K price difference, I think I'd rather spend the money on Rosetta 800 and Big Ben as my front end, and maybe move up to a 002R for 96K. Thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 10-22-2003, 02:27 PM
Rail Jon Rogut Rail Jon Rogut is offline
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Default Re: Native system over TDM WOW!

Were you using RTAS and TDM plug-ins on the TDM system... and how fast a computer is the TDM rig? You should be able to have the best of both worlds with a TDM rig.

Rail
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  #3  
Old 10-22-2003, 02:42 PM
zboy2854 zboy2854 is offline
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Default Re: Native system over TDM WOW!

Hi Rail,

No, I was only using TDM plugs on the MixPlus. I just wanted to pit only the DSP hardware cards against the CPU in the native system. Of course with a newer Mac, using both TDM and RTAS plugs will beat all. But I'm getting hard pressed to find enough reason personally to justify paying several thousand dollars for hardware cards whose DSP power is trumped by a $70 CPU.

I'm starting to get the feeling that hardware based cards can't stay ahead of the game to compete with the rate of CPU advances, which is why I'm now having pause about stepping up to the HD systems for the kind of money it requires, when my native system is already so powerful.
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Old 10-22-2003, 03:06 PM
Rail Jon Rogut Rail Jon Rogut is offline
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Default Re: Native system over TDM WOW!

I do a ton of work on my 002 (editing).. but for tracking a live band, or serious work.. I definately prefer to use a TDM Mix or HD rig. Some of the newer EQ plug-ins (GML and Sony) definately make it worth the extra cash. I've often recorded vocals to an 001 or 002 using outboard converters, so I believe there's definately a place for both systems. Digi have also announced input switching/PEC style recording for their TDM systems.. and their new Accel cards which up the DSP and support more extreme plug-ins - so the TDM system will continue to stay ahead of the LE system.

Bottom line, if you don't need what an HD rig offers, you'll definately be able to do a lot of work with an 002 and a fast processor.

Rail
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Old 10-22-2003, 03:10 PM
tele_player tele_player is offline
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Default Re: Native system over TDM WOW!

Quote:

I'm starting to get the feeling that hardware based cards can't stay ahead of the game to compete with the rate of CPU advances
Agreed, but further: I submit that even add-on cards should just be using generic PC processors, and running the exact same plugin code as the native plugins. For this to work, the plugin architecture would need to be designed so that the UI components aren't assumed to be on the same CPU as the functional component.

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  #6  
Old 10-22-2003, 05:16 PM
nikki-k nikki-k is offline
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Default Re: Native system over TDM WOW!

Hi! Agreed Rail
When it comes time for doing more complex mixes, using many voices and plugs, I wouldn't use anything else.
Yeah, it is finally getting practical to use native only. Combined with HD Aceel tho...
190 voice limit, and using the cards to do all the EQs, dynamics, 'verbs, and basic mod's & delays...well, leaves that precious native power open for softsynths, special FX, and any other little power-suckers one wants. At a price tho...
(last torture test with an HD3 non-Accel yielded 128 voices, 128 Ren EQ's, 128 Ren Comps, 2 ReverbOne's, Enigma, 6-tap delay, and a few other specials, all TDM, no native used, stable. Sorta like my "Davec for TDM" test)
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  #7  
Old 10-22-2003, 05:49 PM
Rock_Artist Rock_Artist is offline
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Default Re: Native system over TDM WOW!

mmm..
Well keep in mind the TDM (Mix series) is pretty old by now..
I've got my P4 2.4Ghz sessions on HD system and was happy that I can push native v.s. TDM power of HD1 worth plugins (without RTAS).

Still you should try comparing system with age let's say a 3.2Ghz CPU v.s. HD|Accel.

I havn't checked such system yet though from few talks with people from Waves they've told me they're killers in power and makes it again worth going DSP rather than native...

TDM also gives better track count and most important Auto Voicing while LE is 32 tracks limited. pretty limiting mix down situation though 6.x enables doing complex mixing with pre-mixes it's far less attractive than TDM.

However you're right! on my studio I have 002R based system and for our budget it's the best thing.
I believe it's wiser to buy LE rig with good convertors, pres & super computer than TDM when budget is important but when I go to studios that have the budget you always good TDM and... Mac (again budget ).
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  #8  
Old 10-22-2003, 06:04 PM
1245 1245 is offline
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Default Re: Native system over TDM WOW!

As someone who was considering getting a TDM system for home, it seems to me the only reasons these days to spend all that money on a hardware DSP system is for more tracks, expandable inputs and outputs, and latency advantages. However, with the $4-8K price difference, I think I'd rather spend the money on Rosetta 800 and Big Ben as my front end, and maybe move up to a 002R for 96K. Thoughts?

[/QUOTE]

I really thought the TDM systems were more expensive because the Sound itself has a much better quality than an Mbox or 002rack. But if it is only because it has more tracks , hell with it.

What you saying makes sence.
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  #9  
Old 10-23-2003, 06:44 PM
nukmusic nukmusic is offline
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Default Re: Native system over TDM WOW!

What about this!!!

Protools HD 1 $7,995
192 I/O Interface $3,995
Midi I/O Interface $595
Sync I/O Interface $2,095
Pre Preamp Interface $2,495
Waves Platinum Plug-in Bundle $3,800 (Diamond $7000)

$20,975 list


Digi 002R Interface $1,295(via optical I/O's)
Midi I/O Interface $595
Pre Preamp Interface $2,495(standalone mode)
Apogee Rosetta 800 Interface $2,995
Apogee Big Ben Interface $1,495
Waves Platinum Plug-in Bundle $2,100 (Diamond $4200)

$10,975 list

Record a 32 track/24-48k session using the VERY same outboard gear (mics, drummachines, guitars, etc.),
Mix down with the same plug-ins and Compare?


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  #10  
Old 10-24-2003, 01:31 AM
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Shan Shan is offline
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Default Re: Native system over TDM WOW!

And now with the VST adapter we can use the UAD-1 and Powercore on le finally. I actually have two 002rs synced together with Athlon computers that give me 32+21 on the davec. Still a heck of alot cheaper than HD.

Shan
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