Building Orchestral Template, but PT Hangs

[cqd]

How many instruments are you loading like?

I think at the minute everyone wants to have a cool template with everything loaded always and it's kind of stupid really..

My current approach, which uses folder tracks, is kind of modular..

I've all my libraries saved as routed folders track presets, so say I want to use CSS for strings and Hollywood brass, I load up those two folders..Generally just using keyswitches or a couple of extra midi tracks or whatever that's all configured ready to go..

If I need any extra particular articulation or whatever I load that up inside the folder, but this is the backbone..

I've all my different libraries saved as folders, as well as a sketching folder, and maybe an effects folder, and just load up whatever when I load a new project..

You can also bang a different template together in 5 minutes..

[johnnyv]

Originally Posted by Michael Carnes

It's in the original post. 16-core New Mac Pro. 384GB RAM. All instrument libraries on PCIe Solid-State. It's quite a capable machine.

I'm experimenting with running VEPro as a server on the same machine. I don't have all of my libraries on it yet, but so far the results are encouraging.

Thanks, Michael. I was asking the member named Massive what type of computer he/she was using.

[johnnyv]

Originally Posted by johnnyv

Thanks, Michael. I was asking the member named Massive what type of computer he/she was using.

BTW, Michael, are you using the newer M.2 NVMe SSD's? You probably are aware that they are much faster than the older SATA SSD's.

[JFreak]

Originally Posted by johnnyv

BTW, Michael, are you using the newer M.2 NVMe SSD's? You probably are aware that they are much faster than the older SATA SSD's.

Pretty sure of that. He is using the ridiculously overpriced new cheesegrater which has M.2 built-in and possibility to add more with PCI-express cards. Even with this older 2013 trashcan that I am using M.2 NVMe is the way to go, you need to be using 2012 or older mac pro to have SATA bays

[johnnyv]

JFreak,

There are a lot of PCIe cards which hold the SATA SSD's that pop right into a new Mac Pro.

Michael, I'm using a new Mac Pro with the full 8TB of internal storage. I wonder if it would behave any differently from yours if your storage is PCIe cards?

If you'd ever like to test such a question, you could send me a huge template using only Spitfire libraries (I own most of them) and we could compare.

[massivekerry]

Originally Posted by johnnyv

Thanks, Michael. I was asking the member named Massive what type of computer he/she was using.

Hey Jonny. I am running on either (depending on the day/location) a maxed Mac Pro 5,1 (replaced CPUs with dual 3.46GHz 6-cores) 64 GB RAM, SSDs on PCI-e, HD Native, etc, -OR- a 2018 15" i9 MBP w 32GB RAM. Mojave 10.14.6 on both.

I've worked with PT on and off since '94, and exclusively since 2005. I can usually make it do what I need, but I am tired of fighting it on some things (which I am sure I will eb doing no matter the machine or software).

[Marsdy]

Originally Posted by Michael Carnes

I'm developing a greater and greater appreciation for those of you doing scoring with big sample libraries. I've been putting together a decent-sized orchestral template. It's very hard for me to activate all of the instrument tracks without PT hanging. I have some strong suspicions and I'll get to them in a bit.

I'm on 2020.5 right now, but I've been bumping into this for a while. My computer is over-spec'ed (16-core New Mac Pro, tons of memory, all very fast solid-state memory). I'm on Catalina 10.15.5, but this issue seems to predate the last couple of updates.

I'm fortunate enough to have accumulated some nice sample libraries over the years--lots of Spitfire, lots of Orchestral Tools, and a good amount of Native Instruments. I've only used them for smaller projects and I suspect that I'd have run into this much sooner if I'd been putting together a large template.

At the present time, I've got about 150 instrument tracks (mostly Kontakt) and about as many MIDI tracks. I've probably got another 100-200 tracks to go before I'm complete. Each Kontakt instantiation has only a single instrument; most of the instruments are "multis", with articulations selected by keyswitch.

If I try to make all tracks active, samples will load and the session appears ready to use. But in a few seconds I get the spinning beachball of death and am forced to force-quit. I can activate smaller groups of tracks and they're OK--I just can't get them all at once. I'm using less that a quarter of my RAM.

In an earlier version of my template, I was loading individual articulations into each Kontakt instantiation and driving things with lots of MIDI tracks. I had the same problem, but it happened a lot sooner. Digging around here and elsewhere leads me to believe that the issue is centered around the enormous scripts being run by my Orchestral Tools libraries. By going the the "multi" form of the instruments I could reduce that script load...

But not enough. I strongly suspect that the combination of the Kontakt script engine and the large Orchestral Tools scripts is taking so long that Pro Tools trips over itself in some way. I don't seem to run into this with the other libraries. But as soon as I start adding the OT instruments I get nailed.

This is one of those problems where three vendors could point fingers at each other. Kontakt should speed up their script engine. Orchestral Tools should tighten up their scripts. Pro Tools shouldn't hang. But I'm sort of stuck in the meantime

Has anyone else run into this situation and is there any wisdom to share?

I’m pretty sure a lot of Kontakt loading happens in the background. You get the initial load of an an instrument but it’s still chugging away in the background loading samples after that. If I remember correctly, Kontakt has a speedy preload, “get you going” state. You can see it happening in the samples loaded icons in instrument headers.

I’m also on the new 16 core Mac Pro now with 384GB RAM, Sonnet M.2 4x4 PCIe card with 4x 2TB Samsungs.

Initially I experimented with loading my template within PT but even with super fast storage, loading took too long. PT seems really slow at instantiating Kontakt. I get a dialogue box that says “converting”. The AU version in VE Pro instantiates far faster. I’ve tried loading my template with instrument tracks deactivated and also tried pulling instruments in using PT track presets when needed but in the end I’ve gone back to using VE Pro on the same Mac. No need for sample server PCs anymore!

In VE Pro I have pretty much all the Spitfire orchestral libraries loaded with two mic positions of everything and lots of other libraries too. Even with the Sonnet NVMe adapter card, it’s still taking minutes to load the template. Too long to reload every time PT crashes or I open/create another session.

Even in VE Pro, the template appears to finish loading but Kontakt is still pulling in samples in the background for a while.

Can’t comment on Orchestra Tools in Kontakt because I’m using their SINE player.

[JFreak]

I think Kontakt is VST in a wrapper, sadly. When I install AAX Kontakt only, it stores a .vst as well and if the .vst is removed Kontakt is not starting

[Marsdy]

Originally Posted by JFreak

I think Kontakt is VST in a wrapper, sadly. When I install AAX Kontakt only, it stores a .vst as well and if the .vst is removed Kontakt is not starting

That wouldn’t surprise me. It might explain the “converting” dialog when Kontakt instantiates.

[JFreak]

Would be great if NI got their act together