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  #1  
Old 06-06-2022, 06:00 PM
ric982 ric982 is offline
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Default MTRX Studio Connection Matrix Problem with Bass Management

Hi,
I have a new MTRX Studio on v5.5.0 DADman (arrived about mid-april). I'm working on a 9.2.4 setup, but having a problem with the connection matrix misbehaving.

Short Problem description: Initially, I can create and remove connections from sources to the 9.2.4 output. But once I've turned on Bass Management, the connections in the connection matrix disappear. If I remove the bass management, the connections comeback, but cannot be altered and new sources added afterwards cannot be connected to these outputs. The connections whether shown or not are working.

Details:
What I originally tried to create was:
1- 9.1.4 source (Dante 1-14)
1 -9.1.4 source (AD 1-14)
1 -7.1 source (Dante 56-64)
1 - 9.2.4 (DA 3-17)

During the 1st creation of this, I started with 'default group' formats, later changed to customer group formats (SMPTE order at least up through 7.1 channels), and later changed the order to move Lw / Rw before Ltf Rtf Ltr Rtr.
The 9.1.4 final is L/R/C/LFE/Ls/Rs/Lrs/Rrs/Lw/Rw/Ltf/Rtf/Ltr/Rtr
The 9.2.4 final is L/R/C/Sub1/Ls/Rs/Lrs/Rrs/Lw/Rw/Ltf/Rtf/Ltr/Rtr/Sub2
Bass management is default with all channels sent to both subs and LFE sent +10 dB to both.

I tried to recreate this monitor profile two more times . On the 2nd try I tried importing some of the info from the first profile. On the 3rd try, I created the custom groups first and then the sources and output (no importing) with same results. Seems OK until the first time I turn on bass management. The MTRX Studio is behaving correctly for the connections that were created. Bass Management is going to both SUBs correctly.

I've created another monitor profile to simply and trouble shoot and its down to this:

1) One Stereo input (ADAT 1 Inputs 3/4).
2) One 2.1 output (DA Outputs 3/4/6) (L/R/Sub1 of the original 9.2.4)

All OK until I turn on Bass Management and again the two connections disappear when BM on and show when off but cannot be altered. New sources added cannot be connected to this output. Bass management is working to the one sub.

I created one more monitor profile where I configured two stereo sources to the one 2.1 output. Again this is working as expected, but once I turn on bass management, the connection section locks up on these outputs. I can switch between the two inputs or Sum them and that all works as expected with bass management going to the sub.

Another symptom. If I close the profile, the connection section is still there and the (9.1.4, 7.1, and 9.2.4) channel labels I added in the original profile are still showing on the source side and the output side and the outputs have light blue dots on DA 5, 7, 8, and 9 (C, Ls, Rs, Lrs ,Rrs). Even through there is no monitor profile and no connections.

So problem doesn't appear to be related to 2 subwoofers. Possible confused things by changing definition of customer groups when used by existing source/output?

AVID problem was opened but they have not responded for the last 7 days. So I"m asking here.

Anyone got some suggestions? Reset to Factory Default maybe?
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  #2  
Old 06-07-2022, 02:36 AM
IrelandM IrelandM is offline
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Default Re: MTRX Studio Connection Matrix Problem with Bass Management

Hi ric982,


I would say that the DadMan software is quite complex and routing options can be advanced to configure Avid would need to work on profile management also signal routing for the next release.
Something I would like to see is colour coding for routing connections also signal flow in and out of the DADMan software similar to the Avid Carbon Interface Gui.

A easier way to save and combine DadMan profiles together if using groups with or without bass management and monitor control options for single mono channel output options would also be helpful.
I think you should not need to reset a MTRX Studio to factory default if the unit is showing input and output signal via the front panel of the MTRX Studio.

Just a few thoughts maybe others could comment on your post and provide some suggestions or feedback for MTRX Studio owners.


Regards
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  #3  
Old 06-07-2022, 04:48 PM
ric982 ric982 is offline
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Default Re: MTRX Studio Connection Matrix Problem with Bass Management

OK, I've got it figured out and it seems it all comes down to problems in the GUI design (in DADman 5.5.0). The hardware can be configured and is working, but the GUI will not show certain connections when bass management is active. They do show if you remove bass management. This is a design issue with the GUI as far as I'm concerned. The connections should show in the connection matrix independently of bass management being on or off.

A second thing that is very confusing and awkward is that if you have more than one source selected that goes to the same output, all the connections to that output disappear. These are the same connections that disappear when bass management is active. If you have selected switched (and bass management is off) - you are OK because you cannot select more than one source. If you have selected sum (and bass management is off), if you select only one interface, you are OK, but more than one - they all disappear.

A third thing that is confusing is that some (not all) connections cannot be modified. The ones that cannot be modified are the same ones that disappear when bass management is active or when multiple selected interfaces drive an output.

Perhaps the one thing that seems to be consistent about the connections that disappear is that they are associated with an output that has multiple sources mapped to it. It is possible to add/modify connections on an input with multiple outputs on the outputs that have only a single input.

I've updated the problem I opened with AVID to describe what I found. I'm hoping that the new DADman in beta that supports Monterey addresses most of this.

I feel there are a number of usability/design issues with the GUI - but I think that should be a separate thread

Last edited by ric982; 06-07-2022 at 05:19 PM. Reason: typo
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  #4  
Old 06-07-2022, 06:29 PM
BScout BScout is offline
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Default Re: MTRX Studio Connection Matrix Problem with Bass Management

These aren't problems. They are intentional. When you assign an input to a source or an output to a speaker set, the management of those i/o are taken out of Con. You then have to manage them in Mon. It's an indicator to use Mon to manage -- they aren't managed in 2 places.

When in SUM mode and active, you are not routing inputs to outputs now. The input is going to a DSP mixer and the output from the DSP mixer is routed to the output. That is why that happens. A single source going to an output is directly connected. Multiple sum to a dsp mixer.

Quote:
A third thing that is confusing is that some (not all) connections cannot be modified. The ones that cannot be modified are the same ones that disappear when bass management is active or when multiple selected interfaces drive an output.
^^^ You are so close to understanding it here.
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  #5  
Old 06-09-2022, 04:34 PM
ric982 ric982 is offline
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Default Re: MTRX Studio Connection Matrix Problem with Bass Management

Hi BSCOUT,
No disrespect, but I think I disagree with your view a little. I've pretty much figured things out and I think there are some design choices for the GUI that a problem, but I can workaround them. The following was the feedback I put in the problem I opened with AVID:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I will say that the following behaviors are probably an issue for you (DADman) to consider addressing at some point.

a) When you have more than on input channel enabled on an output channel enabled, the connections for that output channel disappear on the CON matrix. I understand that this requires a sum resource, but I think that is not a reason to disappear the connection. I would suggest the desired behavior is to show the "OR" of all enabled connections in dark blue when they are in the window. You could perhaps add an indication to the output that their are multiple inputs (e.g. blue dot with a plus sign).

b) When you turn on Bass Management for a given monitor output, the output channels behave as if there are multiple inputs enabled (even if only one input is enabled - i.e. they all disappear). If you fix (a), perhaps (b) will go away. At any rate, I think turning on Bass management should not cause connections to disappear in the GUI.

c) It seems perhaps a bad idea to allow connections to be created that aren't associated with the monitor profile. You can cllck in the CON matrix and create/remove/modify connections that are not associated with any source or output. They actually work too. But they are not save with the monitor profile and they persist even when there is no monitor profile as described below.

d) There are things that can persist after a monitor profile is closed (or even after starting DADman with no configuration or monitor profile file):
- Labels on the channels (they show in several places, but they are all the same lablel on a given channel).
- Connections made in the CON matrix that are not associated with any source or output.
- I noticed once, that there was a hidden connection that persisted somehow. It was on one output channel (light blue dot but nothing was checked).

The only think that should probably persist after closing a monitor profile is the device list and the GUI settings.

There are also things that are inaccurate or missing from the operator manual for version 5.5.0 that should be updated.

1) The behavior of connection indications as discussed above is not described (the disappearing part).
2) The GUI now automatically creates connections from a source to all outputs based on channel role. Once created you cannot modify it by clicking on a dot. The CON section says you can. And it gets more confusing that you can click out anywhere in the matrix that does not have a source or output tied to it.
3) There is generally no discussion about how a monitor definition works. It shows you can have N sources and M outputs but it's not clear till you are into it that there can only be one output selected (e.g. it's kind of M to 1) and that all the sources are going to be associated with all the outputs.
4) The behavior of (2) and (3) means that you need to have different monitor definitions when you want a given source to go to two disparate outputs. For example, if the first monitor profile is for your speakers in the room, this monitor profile cannot be used to route say some MIC pre's to the DAW. Because the MIC pre's are automatically connected to the speakers. So now you need a second monitor definition that has the MIC pre's as the source and the output is whatever interface you're connecting to the host with. In this case, you would define the monitor profile with as CONTROL ROOM and EUCON none. A similiar problem applies to outputs from the DAW to line outs on the physical unit used for exampe INSERTS or other signals like external inputs to SYNTHS or whatever. One important case not mentioned is how you would do a wrap back from say a DANTE input to a DANTE output. Again, this is just another control room monitor definition with just that wrap back in it.

The manual deficiencies are an issue that wasted a lot of my time. I can work around the limitations I described above. The biggest issue for me is that if I need to see what's going on in the CON matrix, I need to turn off Bass Management for a moment, and probably pick a single source on each monitor.
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  #6  
Old 06-09-2022, 05:40 PM
BScout BScout is offline
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Default Re: MTRX Studio Connection Matrix Problem with Bass Management

I think you don't understand DADman yet from your complaints. Not your fault -- should be a better manual or videos.

The things that persist are from the setup (which is a separate file from the profile.) And it is stored on the MTRX itself (the routing) which is how it operates when the computer/DADman are off. The CON section is for routing. It is separate from MON which is monitoring. MON changes are reflected in the CON section because they make resources unavailable.
But these are two separate things.
The CON is the heart of the DADman system. The MON is an add-on.

Reading through your complaints most of them seem because you are not working in the right area. For instance, mic pres shouldn't be anywhere in the Mon section (unless talkback mic.) They should be routed in the CON section. Yes, if you want to send the same source to different outputs at the same time in Mon, you need to set up different "monitors". As for "roles", if you want to redefine what a Left channel goes, use fold downs (you can create your own.)

But overall, looks like you've devoted too much time to Mon which is just that -- monitoring. Con is where things like real routing should be (including sending inputs to multiple places at once). And Con is stored (you need to save and recall or auto-recall) in the setup file ("dms") while the monitoring section is stored in the profile file ("dmprof".)

Hopefully Jeffro/Avid will chime in because I believe he made a bunch of videos explaining how to work with DADman.
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  #7  
Old 06-11-2022, 06:25 PM
ric982 ric982 is offline
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Default Re: MTRX Studio Connection Matrix Problem with Bass Management

Hi BSCOUT.
I agree with everything you just said. And I'll say my understanding has advanced somewhat since what I last posted. Most of the rest of this is an attempt to describe my experience, how I got confused, and what I think are still things that are problematic with either documentation, video education, or GUI design. Anyway - thanks for trying to set me straight. Maybe some of my initial confusion and some of my comments here will be of use to those who care about the GUI design and possibly trying to make it work more intuitively for the first time out of the box guy.

I did look at a number of videos from AVID, DAD and Pro Tools Expert before I even bought a MTRX Studio. Some are great about giving you info about how to exploit MTRX Studio. However, when it comes down to actually setting things up, they tend to go pretty fast and as you say they focus a lot on the CON mtrx and don't quite wrap back to setting up a Monitor if I remember correctly. It all looks super simple, fast, magical, and awesomely powerful. And it kind of is, once you GROK it. But some of the details are missing or glossed over in the videos.

When I first started my setup, I basically was working through the manual and I got the idea that I should start with the Monitor Profile and define ALL the inputs and outputs I had (assigning channels to where they are connected). I then was hoping to go to the CON Matrix and hook them up. It was confusing that they were already connected and that I couldn't change them. But then I could also make connections that were not defined in the Monitor profile. This sort of bi-modal behavior was not really covered in the manual, wasn't described in the videos I watched, and was basically confusing until I figured it out. Your comment about monitoring being an "ADD ON" is a pretty good summary. It would be nice if the manual had a chapter or appendix that walks through setting up a configuration from scratch in an order that makes since.
The video's cover a lot, but lack details and rational for actions. A written list of all activities for one complete configuration would fix that. And for a configuration with enough complexity that is not all just single point to point connections.

I also understand that even if you unload the profile, the CON matrix is still stored in the MTRX Studio - and it needs to persist - or it wouldn't work after the next power cycle without reloading it.

I might also be nice if there was a better explanation about what's in the Configuration fIle, what's in the Monitor Profile file, what unloading the monitor profile does, and what things persist in the MTRX studio when you power up DADman from scratch with no files loaded. Perhaps some explanation of how you might use multiple files for different setups. Most "programs" that have "save" files get you from condition A to an entirely different condition B without any thought about what was in A (e.g. load a different session in Pro Tools). Here, I'm not sure what I"ve got when I load a new configuration or monitor profile. I end up just saving both files anytime I change anything and I don't have any alternative file setups. Perhaps some sort of reset control that wiped out the CON would be handy - there were times when I was experimenting where I needed to go remove every connection manually (just don't make it too easy to activate by mistake).

I agree that you don't need a monitor for connections for things that don't need to select between sources, or multiple outputs, or EQ, or Bass Management, or see levels on. It would nice if the manual somehow mentioned this. However, I"ve actually found it helpful to have monitoring on things like MIC pres. It's a quick way to see that you have signal getting from point A to B along the path without having toperhaps open other GUIs for other units. I was trying to do a latency test recently sending a keyboard signal through a protools track to DVS to MTRX Studio to an attached AI to a line out and looping back in through a MIC pre and back up to another protools track. I first had the problem that I hadn't input enabled the source track. Then later, I had a bad wrap cable. Seeing levels on the outbound and in bound path showed where the problems were and verified my routing through DVS, MTRX Studio, and the AI. I also think having all connections in monitors seems to be a nice way to encapsulate all the connections so you can maintain some recollection of the intent for the connection being there. The CON will show you have A connected to B and maybe the labels give you a clue, but the monitor profile has a Monitor with an NAME that might tell you why these things are connected. More experience might change this view, but that's what I'm thinking right now.

Having some way to store a 'Note" on a monitor might be handy. Having a way to select a monitor and display just its connections might be handy. Having a way to display where the connections for ALL the sources on a Monitor would be handy. Having a way to see where connections are for a monitor that has bass management on would be handy.

There are a lot of things that have human factors issues in the GUI - I'm not going to take too much time to comment - they are so obvious. But just to give an example. The monitor profile closes all the expanded areas when you close the window - and you have to close the window to do anything else. You create a new monitor, it's selected, you go to cloick on the right panel and it jumps out of the selected monitor. There are right clicks on the monitor source (output) to set the Group format but not on the Group format field. You can't rename the monitor profile by double clicking on the name - but that's how you do it in the CON matrx. You can't use the definition in an existing custom group format as a starting point for defining and saving a new format (like open / modify / save as) and you can't fix the definition of a custom group format once it's created. If you have a large number of inputs outputs in a section of the CON, the window scrolling gets awkward (because of the two scroll bars). Etc, etc, etc,. DAD/Avid should spend some time cleaning up the human factors on this GUI.

I don't think I saw in the manual what "LOCKED" is about or how to unlock. I think I saw in some video that it's related to reference levels, but I haven't had the occasion to play with calibration yet. Just getting things sort of connected and running. Probably have to figure that out at some point.

Cheers
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  #8  
Old 06-11-2022, 08:59 PM
BScout BScout is offline
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Default Re: MTRX Studio Connection Matrix Problem with Bass Management

Quote:
Originally Posted by ric982 View Post
I agree that you don't need a monitor for connections for things that don't need to select between sources, or multiple outputs, or EQ, or Bass Management, or see levels on. It would nice if the manual somehow mentioned this. However, I"ve actually found it helpful to have monitoring on things like MIC pres. It's a quick way to see that you have signal getting from point A to B along the path without having toperhaps open other GUIs for other units. I was trying to do a latency test recently sending a keyboard signal through a protools track to DVS to MTRX Studio to an attached AI to a line out and looping back in through a MIC pre and back up to another protools track. I first had the problem that I hadn't input enabled the source track. Then later, I had a bad wrap cable. Seeing levels on the outbound and in bound path showed where the problems were and verified my routing through DVS, MTRX Studio, and the AI. I also think having all connections in monitors seems to be a nice way to encapsulate all the connections so you can maintain some recollection of the intent for the connection being there. The CON will show you have A connected to B and maybe the labels give you a clue, but the monitor profile has a Monitor with an NAME that might tell you why these things are connected.
The CON inputs and outputs have meters (next to their labels for each input or output channel). Hopefully that should show you signal passing.
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  #9  
Old 06-16-2022, 04:10 PM
ric982 ric982 is offline
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Default Re: MTRX Studio Connection Matrix Problem with Bass Management

Quote:
Originally Posted by BScout View Post
The CON inputs and outputs have meters (next to their labels for each input or output channel). Hopefully that should show you signal passing.
Ah! OK that's very helpful. I didn't notice they were there - the green on the black background doesn't jump out and I wasn't looking there when there was a signal. In fact, when the levels are low, they are hard to see at all. But that probably addresses my thinking about wanting a monitor on the basic connections.

Thanks again. You help is most appreciated.
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