Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > General Discussion & Off Topic > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-31-2011, 10:54 PM
CynthiaXC CynthiaXC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 2
Default The art of recording without a real studio

Hello,

I'm looking to try a reflection filter and I'm not trying to pay too much for one. My google search skills came up with these so far.

AE-F reflection filter Soundkitz
http://www.soundkitz.com/Gargoyle%20...n%20Filter.htm

SE project studio filter
http://www.amazon.com/SE-Electronics.../dp/B002ZNZT06

and the

Vox guard I'm also looking at
http://www.amazon.com/Primacoustic-V.../dp/B003MI5MUK

I'm just looking for something to help aid me with my voice sessions. I have a room that has nice acoustics for singing that does have some traps and panels as we use it mostly for jam sessions but I want something to really help bring out my vocals when we record audio. I'm aware of the DIY stuff but I'm not Bob Villa has anyone had any experiences with using these filters?

The first one I've used before in a friends studio who had one and I like it a lot but it was an older version.

The second one I've only seen online

and the 3rd one I only know of a person that has used it but have never used it personally.
__________________
Singer,Producer,DJ, Jill of all trades ; )
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-31-2011, 11:14 PM
nst7 nst7 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 9,864
Default Re: The art of recording without a real studio

The SE Reflection filter is awkward to keep mounted and balanced. The Primacoustic seems better designed.

If you live near a Guitar Center, they have the Primacoustic Voxguards in stock and on display.

Also, Auralex is about to come out with their version of this, called the Mudguard. They introduced it at NAMM, and it should be available very soon. I would expect that it will be lower priced than the others, which is a nice option.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-01-2011, 10:37 AM
O.G. Killa's Avatar
O.G. Killa O.G. Killa is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,152
Default Re: The art of recording without a real studio

all of those filters impart a slight boxiness to the sound.

You are better off just saving up for a better microphone. Getting a mic with a tight cardioid pattern from 100Hz up through 18 or 20KHz will give you better results than a reflection filter.

All the reflection filter is trying to do is to compensate for the fact that cheap mics are only cardioid at 1KHz and are omni below and above 1KHz.

Look at a C414 for example..

http://www.akg.com/site/products/pow...w,diagram.html

Look at the polar patterns. First of all, you'll notice that they show the polar pattern for multiple frequencies, not just 1KHz. That tells you something right there! Second, look at Cardioid, Notice how from 125Hz through 8KHz it is cardioid, and then 16KHz is actually more of a hyper cardioid shape. This means, that when you set the mic to cardioid, it will ONLY pick up what's in front of it and not what is behind it. Thus negating the need of a reflection filter.

Most of the "nice" mics that are a little on the expensive side are expensive for this very reason. A cheap mic like a Studio Projects or MXL mic is labeled as cardioid. But it is only Cardioid at 1KHz, down at 200-500Hz and up at 2KHz-20KHz it can be almost completely omni directional.

Here's the cardioid pattern for an MXL mic. Notice it only shows the polar pattern at one frequency (which I believe is 1KHz).

http://www.mxlmics.com/products/Stud...2006/2006.html

Here's a studio Projects mic polar pattern

http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/c1_download.html

It has the hyper cardioid shape at 16KHz similar to the 414, but notice 4KHz is almost completely omni as is 250Hz and 2KHz.

The polar pattern doesn't tell you if the mic will sound good or not... all it tells you is how much of the "room" it will pick up when micing something like a vocal. The more omni direction the mic is, the more room reflections it will pick up when set to cardioid.

Even a studio projects mic that is somewhat omni directional can sound really good. A friend of mine used one on an album and I thought it was a U87 when listening to the tracks! I asked him which mic he RENTED! LOL But his studio has A LOT of 703 fiberglass acoustic panels in it to make it really dead. So there isn't any reflections coming back at the mic in the studio. So it sounded good. In a home environment, the mic wouldn't work as well because of all the reflections in an untreated or semi-treated room.

So, after this whole long explaination.... I would say save up for a better mic and that would probably give you better results than the reflection filter.
__________________
Derek Jones
Sound Engineer / Producer / Composer

Derek Jones Linkedin
Megatrax Recording Studios
Megatrax Studios Yelp Page
A-list Music Artist Page
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-01-2011, 11:20 AM
HD2 HD2 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 928
Default Re: The art of recording without a real studio

Quote:
Originally Posted by CynthiaXC View Post
I want something to really help bring out my vocals when we record audio.
I have to agree with O.G. on this one. These will tend to do the opposite of what you want. They won't really help "bring out your vocals" but will tend to box them in.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-07-2011, 08:20 AM
CynthiaXC CynthiaXC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 2
Default Re: The art of recording without a real studio

Wow, I haven't been here in so long I forgot to update.

I went and decided to get this AE-F from Soundkitz.

http://www.soundkitz.com/advancedreflectionfilter.htm

I am glad I did because it really was an improvement for me. I didn't experience any "boxy" sounds it actually sounds just the opposite very colorful but warm.

I think reflection filters in general get a bad rap because people don't know how to mic them and use them effectively. But there are too many industry artist recording songs right out their hotel rooms with these things to say they are useless, and I'm really seeing the benefits of having one.

Even though if I need it I still can go to my friends studio but with the AE-F I've been able to get what I was looking for at home which is what I wanted.

Overall it was a cheap and good investment.
__________________
Singer,Producer,DJ, Jill of all trades ; )
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-07-2011, 07:33 PM
zedhed's Avatar
zedhed zedhed is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 3,935
Default Re: The art of recording without a real studio

Now save up for an excellent Mic & you'll be set.
__________________
Too much blood in my drugstream

Motherboard: Gigabyte Z690 AERO D
CPU: Intel Alder Lake Core i9-12900K
CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D15S
RAM: Corsair Vengeance DDR5 64GB (2x 32gb 5200MHz)
Drives: 2 x Samsung 980 Pro 2TB NVME PCIE 4.0 M.2 SSD (Record & Samples)
1 x Samsung 980 Pro 1TB NVME PCIE 4.0 M.2 SSD (OS Win 11 Pro)

GPU:Gigabyte GeForce RTX 3060 12GB GDDR6 PCIE 4
PSU: Corsair HX Series HX850 Platinim
CASE: Fractal Define XL R2
PT 11HD (v11.3.2) Omni s/pdif <> AxeFxIII
HD 96I/O
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-28-2011, 04:17 AM
siersciu siersciu is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Warsaw
Posts: 1
Default Re: The art of recording without a real studio

There's a posibility to build home recording studio and produce wonderful things in there. All is needed is good acostics which we are able to do using products like that: http://www.acousticity.pl/ustroje-ak...we-acousticity basstraps
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-28-2011, 08:32 AM
aka21stCentury aka21stCentury is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Loma Prieta Fault
Posts: 779
Default Re: The art of recording without a real studio

Buy a great mic pre first with an onboard tracking limiter. .02

Choose a mic with absolutely no hint of sibilance. What is your vocal style. Baptist Church trained? Sexy & raspy pop diva? Can you post an example?

Often, world class producers choose an old spit lacquered U-87 for female artists. No, they don't get them cleaned either. Leave mic well enough alone, particularly if your mic closet has a vintage E-lam condenser. Omni mics reflect off the console glass, first reflection, the rest is like the hi-end roach hotel, once it enters it never leaves, besides it is sucked out later by h.264 compression (MP-4). Ask questions over at PMI audio. I don't like the ISA pre. But ask Hyatt about the BBC designed, CLM Dynamics pre with onboard tracking limiter. You want a tracking limiter, with trim. Perhaps the new AVID mBox softclip sounds good, I have not spoken to one person who has tested it.

sorry CD is out of print.

Acoustics experts? Shish... that is a joke! The best studios are former barns or no longer used Manhattan Power Stations. You are asking for the impossible and will only waste your money. Vocal rooms don't need great acoustics. Piano, strings, and drum rooms do.

If a SP sounds close to a U-87, stop overthinking the issue, buy one. Save for a fantastic mic pre and suddenly your vocals will 'sit in the pocket' and will not stand out, as if they don't belong. That is the problem right? EQ won't fix it.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-28-2011, 01:47 PM
Pinball Wizard Pinball Wizard is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA
Posts: 185
Default Re: The art of recording without a real studio

The problem here is that the foam used in these products doesn't do much at the low end where you really need it.

Here is a chart...

http://www.auralexelite.com/resources/mastertable.pdf

Note that the even the thicker stuff has less absorption at the lower frequencies & the thinner material does very little down there.

If you must use foam, be sure to use the thickest material that you can get. This is true not only for portable gobos but also for wall treatment. I have heard many terrible rooms lined with foam. They are dead on the high end and muddy on the low end. The only hope in such a room is to have the talent work very, very close to the mic.
__________________
Main Workstation: Pro Tools 2023.12.1, Windows 11, HP Z4 Xeon 8 core W2145, 64 GB DDR4, Omni, Artist Mix, Sync X, Eleven R(2 of them), UAD 2 PCIe card
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-01-2011, 09:22 AM
aka21stCentury aka21stCentury is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Loma Prieta Fault
Posts: 779
Default Re: The art of recording without a real studio

http://www.safesoundaudio.co.uk/index.php?page=p1

You want limiter on your vocal prior to D-A, and this UK unit has an excellent rep, also a considerably better mic pre than any Digi Le gear you probably are using. A Manley or Trident is way beyond the cost of a SafeSound P-1. EQ on vocals is never a good idea if it can be avoided.

Never compress vocals, unless you are looking for a special effect (like telephone EQ or something) you want leveling. Motu calls their LA-1 optical compressor a Multi-Wave Leveler. Personally I prefer hardware going into digital, plug ins later for reverb, melodyne, aural exciter (but an Aphex type I or II hardware unit in your headphone mix (vocal track) is a great help for intonation))

Based on what I know about Studio Projects and the pros at PMI Audio in LA, check out the SP Omni mic. Look at the gear they import and distribute. Manley. Toft. Trident. Joe Meek. CLM Dynamics? They did at one time handle Sony's Pro line of desks and Allen and Heath large consoles. It is all hi-end, and no bull, SP is made in Bejing to their demanding specs, they tell the truth, don't assemble two screws and label it: "Made in Australia". "Made in Germany".

A poster here said it sounded like an U-87. How could you go wrong with a U-87 sound?

I doubt very much your producer would choose a rare vintage E-LAM over the duller and a tad warmer U-87 (not U-87a). But that is based on platinum vocalists, I don't want to name drop. Nearly all using a U-87 and $4,000 mic pre or NEVE channel.

IMHO forget about wool blankets hanging behind the mic stand, or addons, most vocal booths are dead acoustically, it is the drum room, piano room/live room that artists pay big bucks for. As well as the Neve, SSL, or AMEK desk to mix on... and the room full of outboard gear and mic closet worth 100k... plus a vintage plate reverb. Tube powered.

Speaking of, I mentioned the first reflection singing into an OMNI mic is bounced off the console glass, that is recorded, often a plate reverb is added as well.

But avoid sibilance from the very beginning. Don't depend on a desser.

A silk woman's stocking (roaring 20s style tight weave, pure silk) is best for a pop screen. You can make one yourself with a coat hanger... although it might not look like a pro set up, this is what many pros, in fact, used.

Traditionally, nearly all hits from the 60s-70s were recorded this way. The plate adds a sizzle to the mid-highs, so why would anyone want to start with 'boxy' sound prior to recording when in all Pro Studios you sing facing the engineer/producer and the console glass... and if they have a vintage plate, they will use it. Some engineers have you face at a slight angle. They know the room best. But, if you are asking opinions, I've been in so many of these studios, you'd be surprised how dead the vocal booth (or room) is.

And don't fall for marketing hype. .02

(Deja Vu feeling about this thread. Is it a duplicate? Sorry if I am repeating myself)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
addendum: basically try to keep it warm sounding prior to recording, with hardware. When going to digital audio gets harsher or filters are inaccurately smoothing square waves (however fine) and that could mean a mushy sounding string section or worse.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Take my 003 sessions to a 'real' studio? drake24 General Discussion 32 06-25-2010 02:05 AM
Recording in real studio, mixing at home w/ Pro Tools, mastering at real studio scummyjob 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 10 05-17-2010 03:02 AM
Now I'm going to have a REAL STUDIO? DougSt.Louis 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 15 01-12-2003 04:32 PM
recorded in real pro tools studio for the first time skyking 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 4 12-13-2002 11:50 AM
Recording Real B-3? flymax Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 10 04-01-2002 03:41 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:53 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com