Bouncing not aligned

[digiplex]

So what’s happening here?

https://youtu.be/oTlOq6SsuUI

[its2loud]

Originally Posted by digiplex

So what’s happening here?

https://youtu.be/oTlOq6SsuUI

What’s happening is a 20 minute ramble about an issue that really isn’t an issue.

While the bounce does seem to appear to render everything late in the selection, he is running his delay compensation on his master track. He even acknowledges this. Also, he doesn’t show his source bus for bouncing. We have no idea if he is even routing anything correctly in his session.

If that Master Track is bussed directly to his physical outputs and he is bouncing using those outputs as the source, there will be delay compensation on that bounce if it's turned on in the Master Track

This is a complete ramble solely to get people to subscribe to his channel. IMHO

[Zenguitardude]

Normally I don't respond to these kinds of comments, but today I am just trying to look at an idea and your response is just not really that helpful? IMHO...

I have been doing this a long time, almost 40 years. I have had studios in some of the biggest studios in the US and I know how to Buss audio. I was working on Synclaviers and Hard disk recording 10 years before Protools even existed. I have no followers on Youtube and am not posting for that because I don't care about Youtube.

So now that that is out of the way, you might want to reconsider how you comment on or evaluate someone trying to find an answer to an issue? I am sorry the video was long but I had never done one before, which is why I put in Chapter markers for people to be able to jump to relevant info.

You only focus on the technical issue, which I can drive every time. The "Master Buss" is not a true master buss but an output assignment. I am looking at why this occurs with really smart guys who have a lot of experience, and an open mind and know I am someone who knows how to run a session.

You also skip over the point that I make which is that: many people are transferring and moving files with no sync reference and this could be happening. This is not a self promotion tactic but rather a real curiosity on my part. Also an interest to help if there is a workaround.

Back in the day people who were good at this sort of thing worked together to find and look at create solutions. For the record your honest opinion is pretty rude considering you don't seem to be willing to look at what I talked about.
PS No one forced you to watch the whole thing and many younger mixers don't know about some of that stuff. If you want to actiually talk about the techniscal AND the workflow issue I am all ears.

Originally Posted by its2loud

What’s happening is a 20 minute ramble about an issue that really isn’t an issue.

While the bounce does seem to appear to render everything late in the selection, he is running his delay compensation on his master track. He even acknowledges this. Also, he doesn’t show his source bus for bouncing. We have know idea if he is even routing anything correctly in his session.

If that Master Track is bussed directly to his physical outputs and he is bouncing using those outputs as the source, there will be delay compensation on that bounce if it's turned on in the Master Track

This is a complete ramble solely to get people to subscribe to his channel. IMHO

[Zenguitardude]

Originally Posted by its2loud

What’s happening is a 20 minute ramble about an issue that really isn’t an issue.

While the bounce does seem to appear to render everything late in the selection, he is running his delay compensation on his master track. He even acknowledges this. Also, he doesn’t show his source bus for bouncing. We have know idea if he is even routing anything correctly in his session.

If that Master Track is bussed directly to his physical outputs and he is bouncing using those outputs as the source, there will be delay compensation on that bounce if it's turned on in the Master Track

This is a complete ramble solely to get people to subscribe to his channel. IMHO

Sorry the video is long, never done one like that before, but I've been doing this for a long time and that's why I put chapter markers in so that people could skip past things that I'm saying and thinking and get whatever it is that interests them the most . My personal interest is in trying to find a solution to a problem and I didn't post this here to the DUC.
I guess I find it interesting that rather than actually looking at the problem that I described as being a combination of both technical and workflow you choose to reduce my perspective and effort to some sort of self promotional scheme? I know how to buss audio I've been doing it for 40 years at some of the best recording studios in the world. I think one of the reasons that I don't like putting out these kinds of ideas or posting here is that, in the old days at least, recording engineers and people who are in technical production would actually talk about problems that they found without trying to discredit the other person and actually look at the idea. I am working on this issue with a number of extremely smart and experienced people in the field that we work in. If you were actually to look at what I posted you would see that I am describing a technical problem that I can drive every time, everything is set up correctly, and a workflow issue that a lot of the younger guys and a lot of the production houses are utilizing that could be causing this kind of a problem.

[its2loud]

You posted a banner across the bottom of the video for the entire length promoting yourself and your website and you wanted people to subscribe to your channel.

To me that says self promotion for self gain. If you really just wanted it to be informative with no personal gain, you would have just posted a generic video showing a problem. Which again, what's the problem here? That the delay compensation is actually working?

And you claim to know routing but yet have not provided anything to back up that claim considering your allegation of something being broken in Pro Tools.

Perhaps a more helpful video would be to go through your routing and show the buss path that you're offline bouncing so the viewer can deduce whether or not it's an actual technical issue.

I'd go back and watch the video over again to see if I missed anything but you made it private.

[Zenguitardude]

I took it down and made it private to work with guys I know and respect. I'm too old and too tired of these kind of Internet-based discussions that actually go nowhere, and I'm dealing with this with people I know who are knowledgeable and experienced and don't have a lot of attitude about trying to figure out a problem. The banner was an OBS thing and I had already recorded the whole thing before I realized it was burned into it. Again I had not made one of these before and so it's just not perfect or at least up to your standards of how things should operate. Your fundamental perspective is based on how you see the world and how you work in it, not mine. You focus so much more on things that have nothing to do with the content, and I don't really want to argue with you because I don't have the time or the energy to. I'm looking at a problem that I think affects a lot of people potentially and I'm going to see if I can find a solution, but I'm not going post about it here and I'm not going process it here with you because I don't really know who you are or care what you think. I did not post a video here, and I did not ask for your response, I am just responding for the last time because I take exception to the way you were characterizing my motivations regarding what I posted.

But just to make it clear, the problem that I am trying to describe is; not just that delay compensation works and causes an offset, but that workflow process for a lot of people is ignoring that delay compensation works. That people are moving stems and tracks back-and-forth and potentially losing sync because this issue is occurring. It's pretty simple and straightforward. Also, delay compensation is not really working because the audio should exist in the same place as it does without maintaining the region definition. If the region start time is exactly the same and the audio has been offset by an amount required for delay compensation or lookahead processing then that's causing the potential sync problem.

[its2loud]

The question I have with regards to your video and process is.. Are you using the Master Fader on a physical output or on an internal buss?

There has been some discussion in the past that Master Faders on physical output paths do not compensate for any plugin delay. Therefore, if you're choosing the actual hardware output as your offline bounce path, this would explain that offset.

If you recording the 2 mix internally in Pro Tools to a Record Stem track being fed with a 2mix stem buss and had your Master Fader with lookahead plugins assigned to the 2mix stem buss, would you have the same issue whether real time recording of offline bouncing?

I applaud the purpose of the video and am all for working together to achieve a solution to potential problems.

What you describe as the purpose to your video was not the take away for me on first review. To each his own I suppose. The world is free to agree or disagree. That's the beauty in discussion.

[digiplex]

In a session with delay compensation on and a heavy processing mix bus in place it seems rather obvious to me that there’s a delay. Now I asked you to import that bounced file into a new session to troubleshoot but you wouldn’t try that. In an empty session with zero plugins and delay compensation off , it should snap to grid.
Either way as I said earlier the workflow is to line up the click on import of files using the grid of your preferred daw which makes this irrelevant. If you want the daw to process at near zero latency you need an hdx rig. On native it’s delayed processing for heavy lifting. Anyone with experience in Pro Tools understands latency on processing and this should also hold true for all of those extremely knowledgeable engineers you claim to have discussed this “issue” with!

[Zenguitardude]

Originally Posted by digiplex

In a session with delay compensation on and a heavy processing mix bus in place it seems rather obvious to me that there’s a delay. Now I asked you to import that bounced file into a new session to troubleshoot but you wouldn’t try that. In an empty session with zero plugins and delay compensation off , it should snap to grid.
Either way as I said earlier the workflow is to line up the click on import of files using the grid of your preferred daw which makes this irrelevant. If you want the daw to process at near zero latency you need an hdx rig. On native it’s delayed processing for heavy lifting. Anyone with experience in Pro Tools understands latency on processing and this should also hold true for all of those extremely knowledgeable engineers you claim to have discussed this “issue” with!

What is your problem exactly? You seem to be taking this personally? I don't "claim" to be working with experts, I am working with experts who are capable of seeing the problem/issue and working with it. I have been working with cutting edge DAW's since the late 70's. I have worked at some of the best studios in the world and in my experience people who cared about this kind of thing discussed it politely, as I am finding with people with a lot of knowledge and experience who can see what i am pointing to. So, since you seem unwilling or incapable, I will reiterate what I point to in the simplest possible terms:
There is an issue that is 1/3 technical, e.g. a delay compensation/lookahead processor issue that causes audio to be delayed and yet the region strat time remains the same. This is not "Latency" per se because it is not a throughput issue. The second part of the issue is that this amount of compensation can vary depending on how stems and track are being processed, and the 4rd important aspect is that many people who are moving assets by creating stems and just exporting tracks and stems with no sync markers, are assuming sync because of the start time of the associated regions. Why you cannot hear that this might cause some people problems, especially less experienced mixers or video editors or sound designers or people doing complex mixes for audio post, is beyond me.
Yes there are workarounds and yes I am looking at this amongst a group of experts I know and respect after 45+ years working in these areas. I did not ask you to re-post the video, which I have removed and made private so that i can show it to people who actually want to solve it. I have not made a big deal out of it, but it is something that came up on several large sessions, caused some problems and I am dealing with it. I don't know you and I don't care that this seems to have ruffled your feathers, but it amazes me how much negativity and attitude folks can have when the possibility of polite discourse and exploration can occur. I am exiting this thread, have deleted the video and don't care what you think. I wish you luck in your career in audio production.

[digiplex]

Originally Posted by Zenguitardude

What is your problem exactly? You seem to be taking this personally? I don't "claim" to be working with experts, I am working with experts who are capable of seeing the problem/issue and working with it. I have been working with cutting edge DAW's since the late 70's. I have worked at some of the best studios in the world and in my experience people who cared about this kind of thing discussed it politely, as I am finding with people with a lot of knowledge and experience who can see what i am pointing to. So, since you seem unwilling or incapable, I will reiterate what I point to in the simplest possible terms:
There is an issue that is 1/3 technical, e.g. a delay compensation/lookahead processor issue that causes audio to be delayed and yet the region strat time remains the same. This is not "Latency" per se because it is not a throughput issue. The second part of the issue is that this amount of compensation can vary depending on how stems and track are being processed, and the 4rd important aspect is that many people who are moving assets by creating stems and just exporting tracks and stems with no sync markers, are assuming sync because of the start time of the associated regions. Why you cannot hear that this might cause some people problems, especially less experienced mixers or video editors or sound designers or people doing complex mixes for audio post, is beyond me.
Yes there are workarounds and yes I am looking at this amongst a group of experts I know and respect after 45+ years working in these areas. I did not ask you to re-post the video, which I have removed and made private so that i can show it to people who actually want to solve it. I have not made a big deal out of it, but it is something that came up on several large sessions, caused some problems and I am dealing with it. I don't know you and I don't care that this seems to have ruffled your feathers, but it amazes me how much negativity and attitude folks can have when the possibility of polite discourse and exploration can occur. I am exiting this thread, have deleted the video and don't care what you think. I wish you luck in your career in audio production.

Why are you working with delay compensation on and expecting copper wire processing? Just tell me?