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  #781  
Old 06-21-2022, 03:39 PM
Eric Lambert's Avatar
Eric Lambert Eric Lambert is offline
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Default Re: New "Mac Studio" from Apple

Thanks Michael! It's funny... I used to think that keeping a computer and its associated hardware/software optimized was a job all its own and that, today, most of that has hit the wayside. Things like setting IRQs and tending to system extensions and installing software in the proper order. Having 3.5" floppies of the latest versions (before downloading was practical). Things that could be showstoppers if not done correctly. I'm talking 90's and early 00's. Install that QuickTime update before or after associated software and it's broken if you got it wrong. The IAC Bus gets reset by an installation and suddenly your audio app won't talk to your MIDI app and the culprit is tough to spot. And I won't even go into hardware (blackburst, SMPTE, digital cabling).

Thankfully, most of those concerns are gone and Macs generally stay healthy on their own and ready for a marathon, but when you bring audio/video, DAWs and plugins into the picture those complications are right back on your doorstep, in the same form but also new ones. The difference this time around is that the average musician isn't aware of the housekeeping steps for optimization and so forums like this fill up with these questions. How to run smoothly... this is broken... etc.

Our engineers spent time each day keeping up-to-date with those things. Not just performing the upkeep but learning what that upkeep was. What was effective and what was a waste of time. The need to stay on top of things still exists, it's just not as evident because it's buried in software menus, and that's assuming that you even realize that data is NOT flowing fluently across all your software and that all that sludge could be fixed with a simple tweak.

I'd think that someone good at DAW optimization could even find steady work strictly via providing consultations.
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  #782  
Old 06-22-2022, 03:35 PM
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kings79 kings79 is offline
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Default Re: New "Mac Studio" from Apple

New Pro Tools Expert article is very encouraging.

By Roger Guérin

"Reviews and YouTube to the rescue. After some serious thought and consideration, I went for a M1 Max (64G of Ram & 2T HD). The M1 Ultra, although an amazing machine, is expensive, and geared more towards the video side of our industry."

"Conclusion
This computer is blazing fast, stable, and it boots up and shuts down in less than 30 seconds. My previous Mac Pro was no slouch, but this new one! Maybe that’s why I can’t get $1000 for my old Mac Pro. That doesn’t matter though, it has served me well. I’ve mixed and edited dozens of features and television shows without many headaches. I’ve changed interface twice, I went from 5.1 to Dolby Atmos. All in all it has served me well. Armed with this new computer, I can quote a certain Space Ranger “To infinity… and beyond!
”"
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  #783  
Old 06-22-2022, 03:55 PM
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Eric Lambert Eric Lambert is offline
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Default Re: New "Mac Studio" from Apple

Quote:
Originally Posted by kings79 View Post
The M1 Ultra, although an amazing machine, is expensive, and geared more towards the video side of our industry.[/I]"
I'm not sure how it's geared toward video. I can see how it might be more attractive for video pros, but that doesn't mean that the Ultra doesn't add anything relevant for audio pros -- it has twice the processing power (more or less) for audio, not just video.
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  #784  
Old 06-22-2022, 04:01 PM
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kings79 kings79 is offline
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Default Re: New "Mac Studio" from Apple

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Originally Posted by Eric Lambert View Post
I'm not sure how it's geared toward video. I can see how it might be more attractive for video pros, but that doesn't mean that the Ultra doesn't add anything relevant for audio pros -- it has twice the processing power (more or less) for audio, not just video.
Incorrect Eric. It has twice the multicore score. The single core score is the same. That doesn't necessarily mean you get "twice as much power". We've already seen this proves time and time again in video reviews. The Ultra is most definitely geared towards more high end video with all the extra stuff baked onto the chip. High single core scores is the long-term is what you want.

Anyway let's not get bogged down in the Ultra/Max debate. I just thought that quote might be helpful for some still on the fence. But mostly it's just a really positive article on the Mac Studio in general with real world evidence.
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  #785  
Old 06-22-2022, 06:21 PM
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Michael Carnes Michael Carnes is offline
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Default Re: New "Mac Studio" from Apple

Quote:
Originally Posted by kings79 View Post
Incorrect Eric. It has twice the multicore score. The single core score is the same. That doesn't necessarily mean you get "twice as much power". We've already seen this proves time and time again in video reviews. The Ultra is most definitely geared towards more high end video with all the extra stuff baked onto the chip. High single core scores is the long-term is what you want.
.
I don't think I agree with that at all. Unless you have a plugin or channel strip that grossly inefficient, the number of cores (and by inference, the multicore score) is the winner. DAW makers don't tell developers a lot of stuff we'd like to know (in my case, former developer). But experiments will generally indicate that all of the processing for a channel runs in a single core. Before you jump up to say I've just proven your point, I'll point out--in this scenario--you'd have fewer cores and could run fewer channels. In reality, quite a few channels will be processed by each core. For example, on an "old" 2019 Mac Pro (16 core) a 1000-track project would have roughly 60 tracks running on each core. When that multicore score goes up, so does your potential channel count.

There are some piggy plugins out there, but these days they're the exception rather than the rule. If you use the real CPU load meter (the one in MacOS rather than the inaccurate one in PT) you can see if there's a single core that has a much greater load than the others. Usually you won't. If you do, that means you might consider sleuthing to see which of your plugs is the offender.

Ideally you'll have both better single-core and multi-core performance. That's what you'll get with the M1. The speed of fetching data from RAM is considerably faster on M1 than on anything Intel. There are some benchmarks that include this consideration, but often they're not written to move massive amounts of data around the machine. In the world of audio, this matters quite a lot.

I'm aware you have a number of video reviews that claim something other than what I'm saying. Be careful about the credence you give to them on something like this. I'm not at all sure that their experiments are always structured in such a way that the point is supported.
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  #786  
Old 06-22-2022, 06:38 PM
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kings79 kings79 is offline
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Default Re: New "Mac Studio" from Apple

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Carnes View Post
I don't think I agree with that at all. Unless you have a plugin or channel strip that grossly inefficient, the number of cores (and by inference, the multicore score) is the winner. DAW makers don't tell developers a lot of stuff we'd like to know (in my case, former developer). But experiments will generally indicate that all of the processing for a channel runs in a single core. Before you jump up to say I've just proven your point, I'll point out--in this scenario--you'd have fewer cores and could run fewer channels. In reality, quite a few channels will be processed by each core. For example, on an "old" 2019 Mac Pro (16 core) a 1000-track project would have roughly 60 tracks running on each core. When that multicore score goes up, so does your potential channel count.

There are some piggy plugins out there, but these days they're the exception rather than the rule. If you use the real CPU load meter (the one in MacOS rather than the inaccurate one in PT) you can see if there's a single core that has a much greater load than the others. Usually you won't. If you do, that means you might consider sleuthing to see which of your plugs is the offender.

Ideally you'll have both better single-core and multi-core performance. That's what you'll get with the M1. The speed of fetching data from RAM is considerably faster on M1 than on anything Intel. There are some benchmarks that include this consideration, but often they're not written to move massive amounts of data around the machine. In the world of audio, this matters quite a lot.

I'm aware you have a number of video reviews that claim something other than what I'm saying. Be careful about the credence you give to them on something like this. I'm not at all sure that their experiments are always structured in such a way that the point is supported.
I don't know about any of that. I'm no coder.

What I do know is you just don't get twice the power. It doesn't equate to that in the real world. Never had. Never will. You might be able to run a lot more apps at once and some improvement to PT but not double like you originally said. So there is a middle ground to get we are both saying.

I'm just talking from real world usage as mixer/user and "turbo charge" & more cores does not (so far) equal double when looking at 10 cores vs 20.

Perhaps in the future when everyone truly harnesses the power of this ARM tech. Perhaps...

But I maintain that the Ultra is mostly overkill at this point for most of us and or we can't utilise its power.

Let's see what M2 brings & PT Native tho...
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Last edited by kings79; 06-23-2022 at 01:55 AM.
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  #787  
Old 06-23-2022, 08:31 AM
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K Roche K Roche is offline
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Default Re: New "Mac Studio" from Apple

Quote:
Originally Posted by kings79 View Post
I don't know about any of that. I'm no coder.

What I do know is you just don't get twice the power. It doesn't equate to that in the real world. Never had. Never will. You might be able to run a lot more apps at once and some improvement to PT but not double like you originally said. So there is a middle ground to get we are both saying.

I'm just talking from real world usage as mixer/user and "turbo charge" & more cores does not (so far) equal double when looking at 10 cores vs 20.

Perhaps in the future when everyone truly harnesses the power of this ARM tech. Perhaps...

But I maintain that the Ultra is mostly overkill at this point for most of us and or we can't utilise its power.

Let's see what M2 brings & PT Native tho...
Humm I am buy no means a computer tech guy so (grain of salt)

But ::
I do remember reading a fairly extensive article on how multi-core is also definitely a factor in overall DAW audio performance (don't remember the particulars but do remember the gist). Which was something about how yes, for a given single audio channel and the plugins on it , was using single core . But when combining all the channels, and all the other DAW functions going on in the DAW it is utilizing multi core aspects also ..??

That said :: I would also guess most of us ( probably 50% or more ) on this forum are home audio recordists and not dealing with huge track counts and VI' and long multi track video etc. or deadlines . And as you say are likely not in need of the most processing power available ,,,but that is an individual decision.

I do remember some reviewers commenting on how many of the bench mark tests are or were not optimized for ARM architecture and thus may not really reflect an accurate result on the current processing potential.

But regardless of that --- I think that achieving "double the processing power" is a subjective criteria for justification. and for many not necessary to appreciate what ever power gains are made,,,, "Double" or not because even just seconds or minutes in rendering for example for a pro can be worthwhile even if not "twice" as fast --juss sayin'

So "overkill" is also a totally subjective assessment.
But to be honest for me personally an M1 Max Studio would be more than enough well into my future..But that is just me
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Last edited by K Roche; 06-23-2022 at 08:45 AM.
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  #788  
Old 06-23-2022, 12:43 PM
audiolex1 audiolex1 is offline
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Default Re: New "Mac Studio" from Apple

Quote:
Originally Posted by kings79 View Post
I don't know about any of that. I'm no coder.

What I do know is you just don't get twice the power. It doesn't equate to that in the real world. Never had. Never will. You might be able to run a lot more apps at once and some improvement to PT but not double like you originally said. So there is a middle ground to get we are both saying.

I'm just talking from real world usage as mixer/user and "turbo charge" & more cores does not (so far) equal double when looking at 10 cores vs 20.

Perhaps in the future when everyone truly harnesses the power of this ARM tech. Perhaps...

But I maintain that the Ultra is mostly overkill at this point for most of us and or we can't utilise its power.

Let's see what M2 brings & PT Native tho...
Well, someone tested it.

Seems like you might be wrong on this.

It isn't all single core with M1. It might be with x86.

Watch for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8nnKGW-VZI&t=521s
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  #789  
Old 06-23-2022, 12:47 PM
bradch00 bradch00 is online now
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Default Re: New "Mac Studio" from Apple

Just 'cuz, I am sticking my $.02CAD in. I bought an M1 Studio Max (64GB, 1TB Internal Drive), to replace a late 2014 27" i7 iMac (which was a wonderful machine). I run PT Studio and a version of Studio One both under Rosetta, booting from an external SSD and a version of Studio One running native from the internal SSD. Although I was tempted to get an Ultra, I did feel the price tag was high and the potential rewards did not warrant the investment. So far (and I will say up front I don't run large track counts, however I do run some fairly hefty VIs, certain presets on UVI Falcon used to kill my i7 iMac), I am happy running both PT and Studio One under Rosetta, I don't really notice a difference between Studio One native and Rosetta, but I haven't really pushed sessions under either one. So I guess... whatever works for you is the right way to go. I also spent a while on line with Apple discussing requirements (mostly audio) and the machine I got was the one they recommended, although they did want me to take one of those really pricey displays (I declined... the new LG works fab)
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  #790  
Old 06-23-2022, 01:26 PM
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Eric Lambert Eric Lambert is offline
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Default Re: New "Mac Studio" from Apple

I was hoping to avoid putting semantics under the microscope. The Ultra's CPU has double to "potential." I figured we knew that PT and other audio apps won't take advantage of that immediately when the gates open, and that other factors are involved, and that this will change as Native spreads. This all points to how efficiently we, and developers, use the available power. Reports have shown an incredibly wide range in this regard -- some people seeing immense increases, others suggesting that the new Ultra is slower than their previous machine in practical use. There are many causes for this.

But those reports of sluggishness will begin to fall away, and we, and developers, will begin to optimize the Studio. "Potential," and in particular "future potential," is what I was commenting on.
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