Drumagog to midi or drumagog to BFD options?

[Rail Jon Rogut]

Last time I used Rehab it wasn't sample accurate anymore... which version of Pro Tools are you using and what's your buffer size setting? Adjusting trigger points wasn't working right either... Perhaps it's related to my Expansion/HD

Thanks,

Rail

[crizdee]

Originally Posted by Vaporhead

Why go to all that trouble when you can use TL Rehab? Also, did you zoom in at the sample level to check for accuracy?

TL is totally sample accurate. Once you tweak the occasional missed triggers and velocity stuff you've spent a tenth of the time it takes to do it the way you described and you know for sure that it is locked at the sample level.

A tenth of the time!! by the time you have faffed about with your missed triggers i have run into melodyne and have it back into PT as a midi track right on the button, ready for BFD/DFH etc

I simply find TL Rehab not to be 100%. using the original snare straight into Melodyne and for the first time i'm hearing it exactly where i want it.

I still use Rehab and also Drumagog and they often give me quick fast solutions but never give me 100% accuracy.

Chris

[Vaporhead]

Rail, I'm using 7.4 and TL works perfectly well. When I use them I pretty much always blend samples with the original snare so I need sample accurate replacement to avoid flangy, phasey or flammy results. I usually zoom in at the sample level, just to check, even if I don't hear irregularities. As far as I've seen things are spot on.

Chris, you didn't answer the question about whether or not you checked for accuracy. Also, are you blending with the original snare or are you totally replacing it? Of course TL isn't 100% but when you fix the occasional screwup it plays exactly where the triggers are written. I've tuned bass guitar with Melodyne and, after printing it, if I compare the tuned track to the original the transients are all over the place compared to the original bass track.

Another aspect to this whole thing is the question about why so many people are interested in translating audio to midi. If you end up with a midi track you're gonna be using it, obviously, to trigger a sound source and the triggering accuracy will vary depending on which one you are using. The easiest and fastest type of sound source would be a pre existing drum program like BFD, Superior Drummer or others like them. Granted, they all sound great in their own way but they are still someone else's sounds. They are not uniquely created for the song or album or artist that you are working with. Are we gonna end up with most records having the same three or four sound sources for drum sounds? I would much rather have the option to easily drop my own samples into a drum specific, sample accurate, sound replacement piece of software. The notion of having to deal with a generic software sampler, to trigger with midi, and having to set up a program that plays back alternate hits and has many velocity zones is not at all an appealing alternative, to me at least.

As far as my experience shows, TL does, with some pain in the butt tweaking, what it is supposed to do and makes it easy to use your own custom made samples. My main complaint with it is that it does not support stereo sample playback. I find it extremely useful to be able to add the occasional stereo room sample for kiks and snares and, at this point at least, there is no way to do that. Drumagog, even though it does support stereo playback, is way sloppy. Audio to midi seems, to me at least, to introduce a bunch of maybes when it comes to accuracy also.

[scottgreiner]

Originally Posted by Vaporhead

Why go to all that trouble when you can use TL Rehab? Also, did you zoom in at the sample level to check for accuracy?

TL is totally sample accurate. Once you tweak the occasional missed triggers and velocity stuff you've spent a tenth of the time it takes to do it the way you described and you know for sure that it is locked at the sample level.

Well, Steven Massey did design TL Rehab...

I've been using the beta of his DTM plugin, triggering samples from Reason, Rewired to Protools. First off, zooming in to the sample level I can see the trigger detection is as accurate as tab-to-transient. If you want more accuracy than that, you'll have to get sub-atomic with the editing no matter what means you choose. Second, I printed the same kick and snare four consecutive times out of Reason and zoomed in to the sample level to see if there was drift/midi slop. There was none - each pass was spot on to the next. There are a few oddities as far as how Protools deals with importing midi info and thus he DTM plugin, but once you get the work method it's the fastest way to finish the job (short of a Forat or a Wendel which isn't even as tight). Having a template to import for the multi-track Rewire setup (Z1 thru Z4 à la Slate) helps speed things along.

[Rail Jon Rogut]

Vaporhead - I use 7.4.2 and an Intel Mac with an Expansion/HD and HD3 Accel system... what are your specs?

Rail

[Vaporhead]

Hey Scott, that's great news. I love Steve's stuff. Do you know when it is scheduled to be available? Unfortunately, if you want to use your own sounds, it still does involve the question of having to set up your own sample program in a non drum specific sampler, which is a bit of work every time you come up with some new sounds.

Rail, I'm on 7.4cs4 on a PPC Mac with an expansion chassis and a HD5 system with two Accel cards.

[crizdee]

Originally Posted by Vaporhead

Chris, you didn't answer the question about whether or not you checked for accuracy. Also, are you blending with the original snare or are you totally replacing it? Of course TL isn't 100% but when you fix the occasional screwup it plays exactly where the triggers are written. I've tuned bass guitar with Melodyne and, after printing it, if I compare the tuned track to the original the transients are all over the place compared to the original bass track.

Hi,

I haven't checked for accuracy, my problems been more with missed triggers? and i posted a thread about this several months ago and as far as i know there was never a fix for the problem. But saying that, i do like Rehab as it works more often than drumagog does.

Inly think about TL Rehab is the lack of decent library! not a problem if you gave your own samples that you know are going to work, but for many, its nice to quickly try loads of options till one works.

I too have experienced the Melodyne and bass problem! but with percussive hits the accuracy has been spot on.

Not sure what you are saying about midi being sloppy? i know different VI's will give different amounts of latency and delay but i've never found the midi delay to be inconsistent!! once i have aligned the first hit the rest are true! well thats been the case with the midi notes generated from Melodyne, unlike drumagog which various through the track.

Whats better? audio to audio or audio to midi? I'm guessing the trigger algorithms are the same either way.

Chris

[Vaporhead]

Yeah, I'm sure you're right that the trigger algorithms are the same either way. I'm curious as to whether the playback algorithms are all equally tight from one sampler to the next. With Drumagog my suspicion is that it's the playback accuracy that is the problem.

[Rail Jon Rogut]

It's not the MIDI triggering.. it's how accurate is the imported MIDI to the original drum (audio)

[rdolmat]

Originally Posted by scottgreiner

Steven Massy has a DTM (DrumsToMidi) plugin coming out. It's free. He designed TL Drum Rehab and kinda knows what he's doin'. He showed me the beta version. Looks like just the ticket.

Holy Cow!! What else will he think of next?

That guy's a genius!

I wish I were that smart