Hi Hat Micing techniques!

[Kris75]

Assuming you are using a good micing technique (wow my spelling is horrible) the foam idea is great and I have seen it used a lot, but one of the main issues that I rarely see discussed is drum placement.
I know, I know, Drummers will be all akward if you suggest different placement and they will probably get all tempermental (insert drummer jokes here) which is exactly why you bring it up during pre production, and not during the session!
A lot of drummers will place their HH overlaping the snare, so even if you foam the snare mic, you will get a ton of HH reflection off the top of the snare skin. The workaround is to move the HH slightley over so as it does not interfere with the snare mic. It does not have to be that big of a move either to see a huge decrease in the amount of reflection off of the snare skin. You can also move it up or down, depending on how the drummer adjusts.
Also a Huge problem is the ever present HH BASHER. These are the drummers that think that the HH should be the loudest part of the kit. During pre pro, it is usually good to discuss drum dynamics with the drummer one on one. I usually will tell the drummer that Bonham mixed himself into 2 or 3 mics, and that is why he was so good. Everyone wants to feel like the star so degrading someone only puts them on defense, when you really need them on offense. Always make the drummer feel like Bonham, that is my number one rule
Anyways, that was a rant. I am done now (thank god) (insert engineer jokes here)

[lemix]

OK..
I have suggested in my first reply to use a smaller and thinner hat. The drummer could be at fault here..he might be light handed on the snare and a cymbal basher at the same time.
Also..as IntelDoc says..try to move the kit around.
Do you have the chance to try a different kit/drummer ??
If no..this is probably a time to "replace" the snare. And only the snare.
If you do not have that application (Sound Replacer) you could alway go the long, frustrating but equally efficient way of manually dropping in a clean hit.
Ask the player to hit snare only..record a few shots..with the same setup as you had for the whole kit.
Now..line the new clean hits up with the original snare track on a new audiotrack below.
As for your second question;
You do have many tracks in PT to record drums. What you don't have is ..additional preamps to feed the DAW. There are many options for that..search this forum.
OH..you could just NOT mic the HH.. Kick/Snare/two overheads = 4 preamps.

good luck,

[IntelDoc]

Blues,
What he is saying is this....

Alot of guys, including myself use the 02 as a way to get the audio into the box. I have never used the pre's on the 002 even when I first bought it. I went out and bought a whole arsenal of outboard gear over a few years time and went to the max potential of the 002. 18 inputs.... 18 outputs.... By that I slapped a Apogee Rosetta 800 and that gave me 8 more inputs and a way to get my 22 channels or assorted pre's into the box (002 to pro tools). Lemix uses a lot of highend stuff and if not mistaken is HD in his larger studio? So he can technically go to what his system INPUTs allow. blah blah... So he can technically throw 30 mics on it, etc. I personally use 10 mics usually for my kits and that is a 4 piece kit.

Kick
Subkick
Snare Top
Snare Bottom
Hat
Ride
Overhead Hat (pointing towards the hat side of things)
Overhead Ride (pointing at the ride, etc)
Tom 1
Floor

Sometime I throw a TRASH mic out there in the room.

Now, what I think you should look at is to turn your hat mic outside the kit and away from the snare. You will always get bleed from a small room. It is unavoidable, but controllable. Try to reduce the gain too. How much gain do you need to put to a hihat.. let the other mics and overheads help it too. Cut the freqs. and blend it up. SOLO the mic and put headphones on, let the drummer play and work it until it is good and NOT that much bleed. Again, you will always get some, unavoidable in small spaces.

Also, try this.... Setup a pair of overheads and a kick drum mic. Get that sounding good and then add a tom mic, add a floor tom, then add a hat mic. If you have only the 4 mic pre's on the 002 I would do it this way and learn it...

Kick, Snare TOP, Overheads.... PERIOD! Get the best sounds that way. There is plenty of gain to get the overheads to capture the sounds. Also, how high are your mics? Try to lower them to where when sitting your drummer can reach them if he extends.... Nothing says that you have to have overheads pointing 9 feet above ya. Heck I like mine lower. Gets a better kit sound in small rooms anyways.

Play, and KEEP experimenting. It sounds like you really need to LEARN YOUR ROOM setup more.

Good luck,
Doc

[bluesguy]

I LOVE all the advice that I am getting. In the BIG studios dont they ALWAYS for the most part anyway use V-drums or electric drums?? I have watched a lot of studio sessions on TV ect, in the BIG STUDIOS where the pros record and it seems like I ALWAYS see an electric set of drums there. What does everyone really think of this?? I have already baught an Alesis DM5 and good triggers. And I succesfully triggered the drums and recorded in MIDI. I know I can bus that to audio or auxillary input tracks or both and I thought I could keep the hi hat REAL and the kick drum and crash, ride ect, as REAL mics. only the snare and toms would be effects. Then with busing the midi tracks to audio or auxillary inputs I could have a couple tracks running and pan one to the right, one to the left and even maybe just throw up a Room mic and it seems like I would have a good drum sound. But anyway I am completely open. Getting the Damn drummer (WHO IS A MAJOR HI HAT BASHER!!!!) down here to experiment. Just curious what people think about electric drums in a studio.
bluesguy

[lemix]

I LOVE all the advice that I am getting. In the BIG studios dont they ALWAYS for the most part anyway use V-drums or electric drums?? I have watched a lot of studio sessions on TV ect, in the BIG STUDIOS where the pros record and it seems like I ALWAYS see an electric set of drums there. What does everyone really think of this??

ALWAYS ? >>NOT !!
You don't really want to know what I think
I forgot to mention..I am also a drummer of 30 years beside being an engineer for the last 20 years or so. Basically ..I have developed a playing style, where I would tune my drums the best possible way to THE ROOM I'm in..and play soft on the cymbals and medium hard with dynamics on the skins. This is actually a problem at band rehearsals, I am not loud enough. Works great in the studio and through the PA.
So..in your situation..try a different drummer or if possible another room to record in.

happy tooling,

[bluesguy]

Hello! I like the idea of a kick mic, snare, and two overheads. But, wont they pic up the snare as much as they pic up the hi hat?? Let me know what you think! Thank You!
bluesguy

[bluesguy]

Good points there lemix. I was just telling my partner a second ago how I LOVE the way my drummer sounds at a gig. He is SO powerful. But when it comes to the studio it gets him into trouble. You got the right idea to play the cymbols quietly. As long as the kick, snare, and hi hat are there and all as strong of a signal as they can be then one good overhead would take care of the rest because you can give and take, plus adjust things way easier (like rolls on the toms, crashes, rides, ect.) I need to just chew my drummers ass and humble him a bit! lol.
bluesguy

[rockrev]

Don't forget the most important thing . . . 1 word, 3 letters . . .

K I T

It's a drum kit - one big instrument. When you mic an amp, do you listen for each string? Do you worry that the G is louder than the D? I know I'm talking apples and oranges, but am I?

Here's what I'd do. Start over again. Empty the room. Walk around with a snare drum in hand, hitting it as you walk. Find the sweetest spot and stop. Setup the kit and retune it if necessary. Now, have the drummer play a straightforward beat with a fill here and there. Walk around with a single LDC mic in omni mode. Find the sweetest spot that captures *the kit* as a whole and stop. Now put up the overheads. If you're getting too much hat or ride and not enough snare, try x/y instead of a spaced pair. If you keep with a spaced pair, make sure your snare has a strong center image. Now mic the kick - start with the outside before the inside. Now mic the snare top - aim for the center and use the foam I mentioned before. See if your drummer would be comfortable raising the hi-hat up some (to make a larger distance b/w the snare and hat). Now you can mic the hat (as I mentioned earlier). From this point the rest is filler - snare bottom (for tone), kick inside (for beater), racks, floor, etc., etc.

rockrev

[bluesguy]

So how does this sound then, do the foam ect. one mic on kick, one mic on hi hat, one mic on snare (I usually have it about 5 to 6 inches away from the snare usually on the side of it for better tone) and one over head mic. So far in the journey drums seem to be the most CRUCIAL part of the mix. They make or break your overall sound quality. What does everyone think of this set up?? Or should I just forget the hi hat and use TWO overheads?? I was also thinking of the possiblilities of duplication snare tracks, ect. and panning one to the right and one to the left! you guys are GOOD with drums!! Let me know some expert opinions! Thank You again EVERYONE!
bluesguy

[rocktron]

I LOVE all the advice that I am getting. In the BIG studios dont they ALWAYS for the most part anyway use V-drums or electric drums?? I have watched a lot of studio sessions on TV ect, in the BIG STUDIOS where the pros record and it seems like I ALWAYS see an electric set of drums there. What does everyone really think of this??

in 17 years of making records in big studios, the only time i have used electric drums is where electric drums were called for. i have never, nor do i know of any of my colleagues, using electric drums inplace of the real thing. i think most every band i have worked with would've sacked me on the spot if i even suggested it!

on your hi-hat thing, grab a KM84 and stick it almost parallel and at the edge of the part of the hat that moves the least when it's being hit, pointed in the opposite direction to the snare and slightly downward. technically it looks like a cock-up (and quite often a new assistant will move it!) but for some reason it works 9 times out of 10 and you get bugger all snare spill.