If YOUR groove VANISHES after Recording an OD... It AINT your ears... ADC ATE IT.....

[tonwurm]

Originally Posted by Dism

I found it!

Avid just came out with the ultimate solution!

CHECK IT OUT!!!!

lustig

[Dizzi45Z]

I haven't read this whole thread, so pardon me if this has already been discussed. But I have an idea of why 25Ghosts test is not showing similar results. Could it be that you are tracking through plug-ins that are causing some latency to your performance? Let me explain....

As a percussionist, I find that I automatically adjust to latency on VI without even noticing it. For example, if I am playing a VI and there is a little latency, I will automatically start anticipating the notes by playing a little early so that what I hear while recording sounds right in the pocket. However, if Pro Tools then took the step to adjust the track I played to compensate for the latency of the VI, then it definitely would not sound right on play back.

I wonder if this is the issue that 25ghosts is dealing with.

[zakco]

Originally Posted by Dism

Wow.

**speechless**

[Dism]

Originally Posted by Dizzi45Z

I haven't read this whole thread, so pardon me if this has already been discussed. But I have an idea of why 25Ghosts test is not showing similar results. Could it be that you are tracking through plug-ins that are causing some latency to your performance? Let me explain....

As a percussionist, I find that I automatically adjust to latency on VI without even noticing it. For example, if I am playing a VI and there is a little latency, I will automatically start anticipating the notes by playing a little early so that what I hear while recording sounds right in the pocket. However, if Pro Tools then took the step to adjust the track I played to compensate for the latency of the VI, then it definitely would not sound right on play back.

I wonder if this is the issue that 25ghosts is dealing with.

There are a lot of good ideas that have been passed around as to why 25G might be having "groove" problems... but his unwillingness to test any of the theories has proven to us that he's happier to use "broken" software and complain about it, than do something that might actually fix the problem.

[Mt.Everest]

Originally Posted by 25ghosts

One could come up with about a million different tests to figure out this and that.

I have ONE test that fails every time. I am going to detail it here. I hope you are going to be able to understand that this test is the real deal.


1) Have a mix full of plugs causing a lot of delay (Make sure ADC is on)
2) Somewhere in the mix I'll go in and overdub a bass part for say 20 seconds
3) WHILE overdubbing I record the dub, of course and additionally I record the whole mix.

Is it possible that the bass you are recording is being fed to an AUX track before it gets to the Main 1-2 Output? I don't think you ever mentioned this in your post.

If you are recording an input and the output is going directly to Main 1-2, ADC will work properly.

If you are recording to a track that feeds an Aux first, before the 1-2 output, you will incur throughput delay as PT only disables ADC on the record track, but not the AUX it may be feeding. So your bass track, with 420 samples delay, gets suspended while in record, but you will still be monitoring yourself with a delay if your OVERALL delay is over 420 samples.

Since you don't want to test anything, can you clarify PRECISELY how you are monitoring and how your bass track OD is setup?

What is your session looking like? Different groups of instruments being bussed to AUX's that have plugs on them? What is your Total System Delay?

I suspect that the reason your two mixes (live+pre-recorded music & playback with pre-recorded music) sound different and do not cancel out is because on input, ADC is suspended for that bass track. On playback, it is delayed to fit the delay of session. So YES, you will have two different mixes -- PT does not expect you will be recording a " mix " with ADC ON while tracking at same time.
The purpose of ADC being suspended when recording with ADC on, is so you can monitor your playing without delay AS YOU PLAY. And when you go out of record, it then properly compensates the audio AS LONG AS THAT TRACK IS NOT BUSSED TO AN AUX. (Which I do everyday since I can deal with <150 samples delay to gain the benefit of tracking many takes thru an AUX)

So please, forget about testing-- Just clarify EXACTLY how the track you are recording to is setup and also how you are monitoring it vs monitoring the music you are playing to.

Or would you rather just decide as fact that ADC is broken and not try and see if there is ANY POSSIBLE THING you might not be considering?

MT

[25ghosts]

Originally Posted by Mt.Everest

Is it possible that the bass you are recording is being fed to an AUX track before it gets to the Main 1-2 Output? I don't think you ever mentioned this in your post.

If you are recording an input and the output is going directly to Main 1-2, ADC will work properly.

If you are recording to a track that feeds an Aux first, before the 1-2 output, you will incur throughput delay as PT only disables ADC on the record track, but not the AUX it may be feeding. So your bass track, with 420 samples delay, gets suspended while in record, but you will still be monitoring yourself with a delay if your OVERALL delay is over 420 samples.

Since you don't want to test anything, can you clarify PRECISELY how you are monitoring and how your bass track OD is setup?

What is your session looking like? Different groups of instruments being bussed to AUX's that have plugs on them? What is your Total System Delay?

I suspect that the reason your two mixes (live+pre-recorded music & playback with pre-recorded music) sound different and do not cancel out is because on input, ADC is suspended for that bass track. On playback, it is delayed to fit the delay of session. So YES, you will have two different mixes -- PT does not expect you will be recording a " mix " with ADC ON while tracking at same time.
The purpose of ADC being suspended when recording with ADC on, is so you can monitor your playing without delay AS YOU PLAY. And when you go out of record, it then properly compensates the audio AS LONG AS THAT TRACK IS NOT BUSSED TO AN AUX. (Which I do everyday since I can deal with <150 samples delay to gain the benefit of tracking many takes thru an AUX)

So please, forget about testing-- Just clarify EXACTLY how the track you are recording to is setup and also how you are monitoring it vs monitoring the music you are playing to.

Or would you rather just decide as fact that ADC is broken and not try and see if there is ANY POSSIBLE THING you might not be considering?

MT

MT,

I think my history on DUC proves that I am not against testing anything.
However, I dont need to place two ice-cubes in a frying pan to figure out that they'll melt if I what I am looking for is how long it takes for them to melt in a living-room temperature environment!!!

My monitoring setup:

All tracks defaulting to output 01-02.
OD Recorded directly to an audio track with a physical input.

Or would you rather just decide as fact that ADC is broken and not try and see if there is ANY POSSIBLE THING you might not be considering?

You really should go back and read this thread more thoroughly.
Look at the comments from other users and from DTS.

AS for "Things I have not considered" --- Might be plenty. But as I have stated, I have moved on, found my way of dealing with those problems.
Smooth sailing now.

[ronwasserman]

I'm siding with 25 on this one. I've moved over to Studio One for all my midi work. I spent the last two days getting familiar with it, very intuitive and for whatever reason, it plays back exactly as I recorded the parts.

25 - I found out I can't run S1 in 64 bit mode and use Digi Core Audio for output....won't play. Are you using it in 64 bit mode and if so, what audio interface are you using?

Thanks,
Ron

[zakco]

Originally Posted by ronwasserman

I'm siding with 25 on this one. I've moved over to Studio One for all my midi work. I spent the last two days getting familiar with it, very intuitive and for whatever reason, it plays back exactly as I recorded the parts.

Before you start taking sides, read the OP and you'll notice that this thread had nothing to do with midi or VI work. There are 2 separate discussions happening here. The "side" you're taking has nothing to do with the suggestions that I, Dism and others have made.

[ronwasserman]

Originally Posted by zakco

Before you start taking sides, read the OP and you'll notice that this thread had nothing to do with midi or VI work. There are 2 separate discussions happening here. The "side" you're taking has nothing to do with the suggestions that I, Dism and others have made.

There are several comments in this thread about ADC related to Midi as well which of course includes VI's.

Thank you pointing out that the side I am taking has nothing do do with your suggestions. I know that.

BTW - If I was primarily recording like you do at Woodshop (beautiful place btw) I would take a different approach entirely to my problems. Like use all TDM and probably no ADC.

[zakco]

Originally Posted by ronwasserman

There are several comments in this thread about ADC related to Midi as well which of course includes VI's.

Thank you pointing out that the side I am taking has nothing do do with your suggestions. I know that.

BTW - If I was primarily recording like you do at Woodshop (beautiful place btw) I would take a different approach entirely to my problems. Like use all TDM and probably no ADC.

Hey Ron,

Hope I didn't come off too combative there, not intended that way. I realize there are a few parallel discussions here, all linked ADC. I've just tried to focus on the OP and remove a few variables in order to get to the root of the problem.

We use very little midi/VIs at our shop, but I have been absolutely vigilant about audio timing and ADC. I run both TDM and Native, ADC always on and the only problems I've had have always been bussing related. ADC is absolutely necessary in my world. Tracking without it is NOT an option.

VIs...now all bets are off. In my experience, they've NEVER been usable in PT. Luckily I do very little composing or otherwise where I might need more than one running at a time...

Z