Why does Proo tools sound different at times?

[bonzerboy]

What i mean is it seem like when bouncing down to a stereo fil it doesnt sound the same as before the bounce. My question is would it be best to print a stereo track for the master and then Print the Master. Then bounce track to dither if going lower bit rate. Hope it makes sense. In Short is it beter to print everything till no plug ins and then bounce?

[Mixchump]

This is a well-documented phenomenon, and to date, there has been very little honest research into it. Do a google search for "Playback Disappointment" - there's a great AES paper on it, and it's the reason that many of us have switched to printing mixes to DSD to send to mastering.

There seems to be a loss of depth, reverb tails, grainy sibilants, etc., when comparing the printed mix to the one that's running in your workstation.

There's even a difference between listening through an AUX, versus listening through a track on 'Input' (audio tracks have a whole additional block of DSP for switching between playback and input for punch-ins)...

You're not crazy. And there's nothing you can do about it in the world of linear PCM. Either print to DSD or 1/2" tape and send that to your mastering engineer...

[bonzerboy]

I am going to try printing stereo track then print the master track then bounce to / export. Not a pro studio and just trying to see what my options are for best quality

[maltastudio]

I`m not an expert on this issue.....but an mp3 never sounded the same as a minimal wave file of 44.1 khz 16bit.....so why should a wave file of say 48khz 24 bit sound the same as a wave file of 44.1 khz 16 bit.?

I always bounce with the same sample rate and bit rate of the project....then do all that is needed for conversion.

Maybe that`s why they introduced dvd audio or Super audio cd cause people can hear the difference.
Peace.

[albee1952]

Speaking strictly of bouncing a wave file, The only time I have ever heard a difference, it was traceable to a fixable cause within the session. In my case, there was a bus with the same name as my main outputs(no idea how it happened). Any track that was using this bus as its output was heard during playback, but was missing from the bounce. Once I discovered this and changed those tracks to feed the output, the bounce sounded exactly as the session playback.

The only other thing that comes to mind is, how you playback. For instance, some programs(like iTunes) and some audio cards(computer audio) might have EQ or other "enhancements" that the user may not know about. Most of my playback is done with Windows Media Player, and I have made sure that it is not using any of that junk. I also am feeding that out via optical SPDIF(the mini TRS analog out tends to sound like crap). I can A/B session playback and WMP playback(of the bounced file) and there is no apparent difference.

As for it being a well-documented issue, I know of at least 30 audio pro's with multiple grammy's and other awards and all use Pro Tools, yet not a single one has ever mentioned this

[Wolfgang Eller]

Originally Posted by Mixchump

There seems to be a loss of depth, reverb tails, grainy sibilants, etc., when comparing the printed mix to the one that's running in your workstation.

You ever did a phase cancellation test?

[bonzerboy]

Do you see any difference of printing mixes and masters before a bounce? or print the final mix and bounce the stereo master? What was mentioned about with some detail missing or not in depth kind of nails it. with verbs etc.. I get what you are sayin about the media player as well

[philgrab]

You might consider an external summing box. Of course this leads to wanting external master buss processing and possibly parallel compression for various parts of the mix which can lead to patcbays and this leads to the dark side.

[Bookerv12]

Hi,
I have heard a lot of complaints over the years about bounces not sounding like the mix.
I have gone and helped several people experiencing the phenomenon, and all of them had routing errors, some hard to figure out, others fairly basic.

10-15 years ago, we had an issue where certain plugins or automation would not do what you expected during bounce.
I think that may have reared its ugly head recently on an offline bounce.
Still trying to figure it out.

This is what you need to do:

Route all of your tracks to a stereo audio track instead of main outputs.
Put the audio track (mixdown track) into input monitor or record ready.
Listen to your excellent mix.
Is it the same?
Good.
Now print the mix to the audio track.

Take it out of input monitor and play it back to compare.
Same. Right?

Now select the printed clip and export it at whatever sample rate and bit depth you want. (It only takes about 5 seconds to bounce)

You will find that the printed mix and bounce are the same.
If you have a routing error, you will usually hear it before you print the mix.

[EdgarRothermich]

Originally Posted by maltastudio

I`m not an expert on this issue.....but an mp3 never sounded the same as a minimal wave file of 44.1 khz 16bit.....so why should a wave file of say 48khz 24 bit sound the same as a wave file of 44.1 khz 16 bit.?

Because you are comparing Apple with Oranges.

mp3 is compressed audio vs. WAV which is uncompressed audio

48k 24bit vs. 44.1k 16bit is different and of course, sounds different. Listen to a fade of a 16bit audio signal vs. a 24 bit and you will clearly hear Quantization Distortion right there.

Of course, the amount of how much difference there is and how you hear depends on many things, i.e., audio material, equipment, your ears, your experience.