NEW -> Pro Tools | Carbon Pre

[JFreak]

Yeap. Whoever compares S6L preamp to a Behringer is out of his mind.

[eightamrock]

Originally Posted by K Roche

Nah. the 8 mic pre's and the converters alone on the Carbon and Carbon Pre are worth well into 3k or more Given the only "objectively" comparable product is UAD which is $3500 -$3800 . Myself I don't see a problem with the HP amps monitor control and 8 DSP being $1k more USD.

You do realize the whole concept of Carbon is to offer DSP for 1/2 the cost of HDX, to those who do not need a full blown HDX ,,, so why would anyone expect it to as expandable or capable ???

Pretty far stretch of cynical imagination to think the Carbon is like the Behringer which is not even in the same ball park let alone remotely comparable.

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more this unit becomes attractive for my project studio. The pre's are better than my digimax LT pre's which I use when I need to stretch to 16+ inputs, and with zero latency and full recall, it's nice from a productivity standpoint.

I have a little project studio where I mostly do weekend/evening work with friends. Very few paid projects, but we are all old men and women who have families and kids. So for me, its whenever some group of musicians can find time to get together, which is almost never consistently the same group. I leave a drum kit and amps mic'd up, but there are always differences in instruments etc that I am constantly adjustin for, so it makes consistency between sessions tough. When I was using my ghost console this was REALLY challenging especially when mixing projects.

Now that the ghost console was lost to a flood here in the NE (as well as a lot of my equipment) Im rebuilding out a hybrid setup. Most of my rack gear like reverbs, compressors, etc are set it and forget it. But between the 8 pres on carbon and the 16 external (8 different rack pre's and my 8 channel digimax LT), I spend a lot of time fussing over things rather than writing with my friends.

So having 16 channels with dead zero latency, AND having full recall where I can just noodle with my outboard gear a little bit saves me TONS of time and is really productive. Ill never give up the rack gear I have left, but anything that gets me setup faster with a lot of consistency between sessions is a huge plus.

I may just buy one of these.

[LDS]

Originally Posted by K Roche

Nah. the 8 mic pre's and the converters alone on the Carbon and Carbon Pre are worth well into 3k or more Given the only "objectively" comparable product is UAD which is $3500 -$3800 . Myself I don't see a problem with the HP amps monitor control and 8 DSP being $1k more USD.

You do realize the whole concept of Carbon is to offer DSP for 1/2 the cost of HDX, to those who do not need a full blown HDX ,,, so why would anyone expect it to as expandable or capable ???

Pretty far stretch of cynical imagination to think the Carbon is like the Behringer which is not even in the same ball park let alone remotely comparable.

Nah. You're just confusing the Carbon Pre as the only choice for remote preamps with the Avid Carbon, as being the same as the best choice for remote preamps with the Avid MTRX Studio. Avid is ultimately marketing them to both users, but the functionality does change quite considerably between the two based on what interface you already own.

Particularly post-pandemic, I have worked in a bunch of MTRX/MTRX Studio equipped facilities that have rolling racks of Focusrite MP8Rs. You can record from any Pro Tools system in the building, with the preamps and talent in any other room or studio in the building. It in an incredibly flexible workflow that has a lot of benefits not just in terms of social distancing in a pandemic, but also acoustic isolation and choosing the best room or space for a particular aspect of the recording.

My comparison isn't really far-fetched or cynical at all in that regard. If you own a MTRX or MTRX Studio, the Carbon Pre offers exactly the same workflow as an ADA8000, and that is because they connect in exactly the same way to the DAW system. Janne's unadulterated love affair with S6Ls preamps, unfortunately doesn't change that. When it comes to sound quality, remote preamp placement and remote controllability for the MTRX line, there are just simply better microphone preamp options on the market for comparable prices than the Carbon Pre.

You're preaching to the wrong guy about the concept of the Carbon. I sold my HDX2 system this year after Avid scrapped the native I/O limits and haven't looked back. Half a HDX card worth of DSP occupies no-mans land to me. It brings very little DSP to the powerful native systems of 2022, while offering very little DSP to intricate and elaborate sessions. I just don't see the point of it, regardless of cost.

I don't know what Avid charges for this stuff overseas, but locally you could walk into a music store today and leave with a Carbon Pre and Carbon for $10400AUD... or you can leave with two Apollo X8P Heritage editions and a pair of Sphere L22 microphones through their current promotion for just $9350AUD.

I know which I would be choosing...

[K Roche]

Originally Posted by LDS

Nah. You're just confusing the Carbon Pre as the only choice for remote preamps with the Avid Carbon, as being the same as the best choice for remote preamps with the Avid MTRX Studio. Avid is ultimately marketing them to both users, but the functionality does change quite considerably between the two based on what interface you already own.

Nah you are flat out wrong about my perspective and simply letting your distain for Avid bring strawman arguments and a totally personal perspective into it.
I am not confusing anything . Of course there are multiple alternatives at multiple different price points to the both the Carbon, and Carbon Pre. But that is not the point .. It may be for you but that is only your subjective perspective

I know someone that uses a Motu to add 16 channels via ADAT to his Carbon based system.. Obviously there are Focusrite and even Presonus alternatives for way less money .. But those or especially the Behinger,,, having the same "workflow" is irrelevant to the question of quality of the signal chain ....

I am only objectively looking at the quality of the pre's and quality of conversion in both the Carbon and Carbon Pre. And in that perspective while there certainly are non Avid competition,,, but as you say they are more or less in the same price point range .

there are just simply better microphone preamp options on the market for comparable prices than the Carbon Pre.

Just "simply better" is your subjective personal opinion and may or may not be accurate ,,,, but agin as you say,,, they are of "comparable prices". If you think they are a better choice then you do,,, but that simply does not invalidate the Carbon of Carbon Pre as a viable choice for others .

Half a HDX card worth of DSP occupies no-mans land to me

'To me" is exactly the point ...
While 8 DSP chips may not be suitable for you and many who need more processing power.. There is a significant number of users that do not need more than 8 HDX chips and there is a significant amount of functional " mans land" for which 8 DSP chips is completely viable and not remotely a "wasteland", you are confusing your needs with what others may need or want.
For example for my use the Carbon alone is completely fine I don't need any additional pres ..

And absolutely none of that detracts from the viability of the Carbon Pre adding the potential for 8 additional excellent quality pres and conversion , perhaps in your mind it may well not be a viable alternative FOR YOU , but in objective reality, it is a completely viable and competitive option for some others ---WHICH is the POINT.

I don't know what Avid charges for this stuff overseas, but locally you could walk into a music store today and leave with a Carbon Pre and Carbon for $10400AUD... or you can leave with two Apollo X8P Heritage editions and a pair of Sphere L22 microphones through their current promotion for just $9350AUD.

I know which I would be choosing...

BTW I am not preaching to anyone I am observing reality,,,, if the Carbon would not work for you that is fine and valid ----- BUT has no relevance to what others are doing ...

Not to mention you are again confused (from the Sweetwater web site) ,,the Appollo 8x Heritage has 4 mic preamps at $3199 USD and so you would need 4 of them @ $12,796 USD to equal the 16 mic pre's in the Carbon and Carbon Pre @ a total cost of $6998 USD (and to run the Apollos' and Pro Tools you would have to F**K around with 2 layers of software) At approximately 1/2 the price for the Carbons "I know what I would choose"
...

[Matt Hepworth]

For me, I got Carbon not because of the lower cost, but because it's the lowest latency of ANY current recording system. I had HDX, but its latency was much higher than HD Accel once any plugins were used. Carbon has low enough base latency that you can even achieve latency superior to HD Accel while using a few plugins.

I haven't used my Carbon in months due to the issues, but I've been keeping it on hand in hopes of resolution, since it occupies a unique space from a recording standpoint (sub 2ms tracking at 44.1).
For me, the issues with Carbon have been the timeline and sync bugs, plus the limitation of 24 inputs. IF Carbon Pre truly adds 8 more inputs (32+TB that are DSP monitoring enabled) that eliminates the latter.

[MCorbin]

Hey fine folks!

Sorry for the delay, a lot of balls in the air right now. Hopefully I've answered most of your questions below, but feel free to keep em coming...


ADAT or AVB? Why AVB over ADAT?
So the answer is you can expand with either AVB or ADAT. There are obviously pros and cons…

For Carbon users, you will want to leverage AVB.
• 32 bit float point from Carbon to PT and back
• Ch count does not truncate at higher sample rates
• 100' of cable between the workstation and each Carbon device
• Mic Pre Control over AVB/Ethernet

For customers who may not have Carbon, they can leverage ADAT into an existing IO and take advantage of the same killer preamps and preamp control in Carbon.
• Ch count truncates at higher SR
• Limited distance
• Only 24 bit
• Mic Pre Control over Ethernet (no AVB transmitted)


DSP Processing

There were a few comments about DSP and wanting more. Carbon is half an HDX card… if your workflow requires more, consider an HDX card. It's the same chips, is expandable, and leverages the Hybrid Engine.


What's so great about the Pres???
So why are the pres so great… a bunch of reason, but I'll try to distill
• We use multiple ADC on each channel which gives us greater dynamic range and a lower noise floor
• They are 32bit float at ADC and at DAC
• Variable Impedance on 4 of the pres to add some color and flavor to your mics
• They have seamless control and recall integrated into Pro Tools. No more settings in peripherals or IO setup for Carbon or Carbon Expanded (Carbon + Carbon Pre(s))


ADC bugs
These suck, and I am disappointed they are around. That being said, you guys raised cases and made some noise, and I thank you for funneling the noise formally through support cases.
We've closed over 15 this year and have more in our sights. They are deep and complicated and we are still committed to resolving them.


Latency
No noticeable latency with 2x Pres added over AVB, sub 1ms


Cowboy Bob & Kroche on Aux IO

In order for you to be able to snag another audio stream, it needs be enabled as a core audio device. Once it's in core audio, you can steal streams and bring them into PT, but they are currently not delay compensated.

All Carbon & Carbon Pre channels are subject to ADC.


Matt Hepworth on Channel Count
"Does it actually expand the total I/O in Carbon with Pro Tools to 32+TB by adding Carbon Pre, or does it replace existing I/O with preamps, but not add additional total number of inputs in PT?"

When expanding over AVB, you keep ALL of the IO in Carbon, and the Carbon Pre brings 8 Mic/Line inputs and 8 line outputs. Currently the 16 ADAT IO are disabled in AVB expansion.


Luke Howard on ADAT Configs & MTRX:
Yes, the Knowledge Base you linked to was specifically for ADAT mode configs… although the Carbon + 2x Carbon Pre is in that list too, I see the confusion and will update it. Also, keep in mind these are obvious self serving recommendations… it can connect ADAT to any other ADAT device and still retain Mic Pre Control via Ethernet.

"Just please integrate it with the MTRX world somehow" - you can over ADAT with MTRX St AND retain the mic pre control over ethernet

I think I got most of the questions you guys had not already answered yourselves. AES was just the announcement for Carbon Pre, it should be available, along with more information and reviews shortly.

Thanks all!

m

[eightamrock]

Originally Posted by MCorbin

Hey fine folks!

Sorry for the delay, a lot of balls in the air right now. Hopefully I've answered most of your questions below, but feel free to keep em coming...


ADAT or AVB? Why AVB over ADAT?
So the answer is you can expand with either AVB or ADAT. There are obviously pros and cons…

For Carbon users, you will want to leverage AVB.
• 32 bit float point from Carbon to PT and back
• Ch count does not truncate at higher sample rates
• 100' of cable between the workstation and each Carbon device
• Mic Pre Control over AVB/Ethernet

For customers who may not have Carbon, they can leverage ADAT into an existing IO and take advantage of the same killer preamps and preamp control in Carbon.
• Ch count truncates at higher SR
• Limited distance
• Only 24 bit
• Mic Pre Control over Ethernet (no AVB transmitted)


DSP Processing

There were a few comments about DSP and wanting more. Carbon is half an HDX card… if your workflow requires more, consider an HDX card. It's the same chips, is expandable, and leverages the Hybrid Engine.


What's so great about the Pres???
So why are the pres so great… a bunch of reason, but I'll try to distill
• We use multiple ADC on each channel which gives us greater dynamic range and a lower noise floor
• They are 32bit float at ADC and at DAC
• Variable Impedance on 4 of the pres to add some color and flavor to your mics
• They have seamless control and recall integrated into Pro Tools. No more settings in peripherals or IO setup for Carbon or Carbon Expanded (Carbon + Carbon Pre(s))


ADC bugs
These suck, and I am disappointed they are around. That being said, you guys raised cases and made some noise, and I thank you for funneling the noise formally through support cases.
We've closed over 15 this year and have more in our sights. They are deep and complicated and we are still committed to resolving them.


Latency
No noticeable latency with 2x Pres added over AVB, sub 1ms


Cowboy Bob & Kroche on Aux IO

In order for you to be able to snag another audio stream, it needs be enabled as a core audio device. Once it's in core audio, you can steal streams and bring them into PT, but they are currently not delay compensated.

All Carbon & Carbon Pre channels are subject to ADC.


Matt Hepworth on Channel Count
"Does it actually expand the total I/O in Carbon with Pro Tools to 32+TB by adding Carbon Pre, or does it replace existing I/O with preamps, but not add additional total number of inputs in PT?"

When expanding over AVB, you keep ALL of the IO in Carbon, and the Carbon Pre brings 8 Mic/Line inputs and 8 line outputs. Currently the 16 ADAT IO are disabled in AVB expansion.


Luke Howard on ADAT Configs & MTRX:
Yes, the Knowledge Base you linked to was specifically for ADAT mode configs… although the Carbon + 2x Carbon Pre is in that list too, I see the confusion and will update it. Also, keep in mind these are obvious self serving recommendations… it can connect ADAT to any other ADAT device and still retain Mic Pre Control via Ethernet.

"Just please integrate it with the MTRX world somehow" - you can over ADAT with MTRX St AND retain the mic pre control over ethernet

I think I got most of the questions you guys had not already answered yourselves. AES was just the announcement for Carbon Pre, it should be available, along with more information and reviews shortly.

Thanks all!

m

Thanks for all these great answers!

Specifically on the AVB adat one, you said 16 adat are disabled over AVB, you mean with expansion mode? IE

Carbon = 8 + 16 adat
Carbon Pre = 8

Total here is 32 channels of IO in AVB mode expanding the Carbon.

Just want to confirm that if I expand my carbon over AVB with a single carbon pre, I still retain my 16 adat on my carbon, I just can’t use the additional adat on the carbon pre.

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nst7]

Originally Posted by eightamrock

Thanks for all these great answers!

Specifically on the AVB adat one, you said 16 adat are disabled over AVB, you mean with expansion mode? IE

Carbon = 8 + 16 adat
Carbon Pre = 8

Total here is 32 channels of IO in AVB mode expanding the Carbon.

Just want to confirm that if I expand my carbon over AVB with a single carbon pre, I still retain my 16 adat on my carbon, I just can’t use the additional adat on the carbon pre.

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you watch this video, right around 40 seconds in, it shows the I/O Input tab with 2 Carbon pre's attached. It clearly shows the 16 adats of the main Carbon, in addition to the 16 analog inputs from the 2 Carbon pre's, making a total of 40 simultaneous inputs.

A few seconds later, it shows the Output tab, similarly showing the 16 adats of the main Carbon in addition to the analog outs of the Carbon pre's, plus it shows the main monitor out 1-2, and the 4 stereo heaphone outs, making a grand total of 50 simultaneous outputs.

Hopefully I'm not wrong on this, maybe Mr. Corbin will confirm this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRlQzy3Luv0

[Burgher]

I hope it is 40 inputs at 44.1/48khz, and 32 inputs at 96khz. That would be fantastic! It also seems that Avid could open up the ADAT ports on the Carbon Pres in future to allow further expansion, although I wouldn’t need it. Further AVB expansion capability would make more sense for Avid though as it would sell more of their Carbon Pre’s.

[eightamrock]

Originally Posted by Burgher

I hope it is 40 inputs at 44.1/48khz, and 32 inputs at 96khz. That would be fantastic! It also seems that Avid could open up the ADAT ports on the Carbon Pres in future to allow further expansion, although I wouldn’t need it. Further AVB expansion capability would make more sense for Avid though as it would sell more of their Carbon Pre’s.

I agree with this, he said specifically "Currently the 16 ADAT IO are disabled in AVB expansion" which means to me, they can and WILL once they solve a few bugs.

That would be fantastic.