how to avoid clipping on post fader bus sends?

[jacko]

Originally Posted by Greg Malcangi

when you say "No Clipping, no problems", you are stating a fact. A fact which is incorrect, your recordings have a great deal of clipping and cause quite a few problems. It maybe that the clipping doesn't bother you or your clients because of the genre of music you're working on but your factual statement is still incorrect. My personal opinion is that your mixes would benefit from not clipping and that your workflow is at least a contributing factor, if not the entire reason why you are getting clipping.

There is absolutely no clipping in the mixing stage at no point in my signal flow. How many times do I have to repeat that?

[Greg Malcangi]

Originally Posted by milaszewski

I will keep repeating: I do not have internal clipping in my mixes.

And you think that continuing to repeat it is going to make it true? I don't know at exactly what point you are getting clipping but with your workflow the fact that you are clipping is no big surprise.

Originally Posted by milaszewski

Could you please explain how post fader sends have 18dB of headroom? This is new to me and I am willing to learn.

It's not new to you, it's already been explained by me and others several times in this thread and you have proven yourself to be unwilling to learn. You are also proving yourself to be a troll.

[jacko]

Originally Posted by Greg Malcangi

And you think that continuing to repeat it is going to make it true? I don't know at exactly what point you are getting clipping but with your workflow the fact that you are clipping is no big surprise. It's not new to you, it's already been explained by me and others several times in this thread and you have proven yourself to be unwilling to learn. You are also proving yourself to be a troll.

Where do I enable this headroom? Because when I try as soon as post fader level reaches 0dB the sends get clipped and I don't have this 18dB headroom.

Also, how do I find out that I get clipping when I don't see it, nor hear it? Here is my knowledge which, according to you, proved to be wrong:

When I get clipping there are red warnings in Pro Tools at many different points like meters, sends, inserts, etc. But in my sessions when I see those red markings I react and I turn level down appropriately and red disappears. What do I do to find out that there is this invisible clipping going on? This is all new to me. Please explain.

I apologize for being a troll.

[PTUser NYC]

We have all explained this to you over and over. When you use the tool the way it is supposed to be used there is 18db of headroom in the send. Observe 0dbVU

Also, you ask how there can be clipping you don't see. Someone quoted you a very nice passage about that and you're ignoring it too.

We've tried to help you. We've only received your defensive stance to that help. I suggest the discussion is over now.

[jacko]

Originally Posted by PTUser NYC

We have all explained this to you over and over. When you use the tool the way it is supposed to be used there is 18db of headroom in the send. Observe 0dbVU

Also, you ask how there can be clipping you don't see. Someone quoted you a very nice passage about that and you're ignoring it too.

We've tried to help you. We've only received your defensive stance to that help. I suggest the discussion is over now.

There is no VU scale in Pro Tools mixer. I will be happy to work with VU meters where -25dBFS to -15dBFS would cover the top range of the meter but this is not the case. There is absolutely no advantage in working today at so low levels where you can barely see the meters moving. This is what my typical session looks like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXfsodH-0YA
Metering is pre fader. Some channels reach as high as -3dBFS and there is no difference in sound if I run this signal 15dB lower. The only difference is that instead of seeing level fluctuations through 10% of my meters range I see level jumping nicely through most of my meter range. I understand you are trying to help me, but your help does not improve the sound quality, it only makes my work more difficult. I think it is too late for me to learn to work without signal metering. I need to see my levels and I don't see anything wrong with using full dynamic range of my system. I don't see any reason not to run Pro Tools in the way it was designed to run.

Believe me, I would run my peak signals at maximum of -18dBFS if Pro Tools had different metering range, but Pro Tools designers did not want to follow your logic and they created something different. Also with these levels not only I am absolutely fine in digital domain, but my analogue equipment that I run on inserts could easily handle signals at least 10dB hotter than they are being fed now.

See the range of this meter and compare it to its equivalent in Pro Tools.
http://www.barrycrocker.com/sitebuil...s/vu-meter.gif Can you see 1dB steps on Pro Tools meters in the range of -25 to -15dBFS ?

[AINSLIE]

Originally Posted by PTUser NYC

I suggest the discussion is over now.

I agree - not because of the theory spouted. Not because of the traditional technical limits. But because no amount of discussion is going to change the fact that we will continue to get hot recordings and we all have to compromise, or work around. PT is correctly reporting levels, clipping etc ... and adhering to traditional audio standards (albeit with headroom - or dynamic range - in excess of analog counterparts / components)

I just happen to agree with the OP that it would be nice to have the option to trim post fader aux sends (maybe a -6 or -12 switch). Not for technical purity but real world practicality and time saving. And this is something that could be coded as an option. Its not an impossible ask given all we know about what the PT mix bus can handle. Until then we will continue to trim down, move all faders, or VCA our way back to a red free state, being good engineers. And making killer mixes the fans love in the fantastic new world of ITB mixing ....

Ainslie

[PTUser NYC]

Cool Ainslie.

[midnightrambler]

Originally Posted by milaszewski

There is no VU scale in Pro Tools mixer. I will be happy to work with VU meters where -25dBFS to -15dBFS would cover the top range of the meter but this is not the case. There is absolutely no advantage in working today at so low levels where you can barely see the meters moving. This is what my typical session looks like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXfsodH-0YA

I don't understand why you have such a pathological need to see the meters jumping up so much. In the days of tape, some VUs might be slamming over 0VU (bass for instance), others (hats etc) would barely be tickling -20VU. If you'd tried recording a hat at 0VU on tape you would have been in serious trouble indeed. So VU meters were always registering different amounts depending on the type of signal.

Can't you look at the meters in a different way - ie, if they turn yellow, they're veering on the "too hot", and that about halfway up is actually 'correct'? It can't be that hard to re-adjust your mindset.

[jacko]

Originally Posted by midnightrambler

Can't you look at the meters in a different way - ie, if they turn yellow, they're veering on the "too hot", and that about halfway up is actually 'correct'? It can't be that hard to re-adjust your mindset.

I could do that. I'll try that one day. But that will involve reducing the dynamic range of tracks that were already recorded. Right now, at this point, I think of it as an additional unnecessary digital operation. But I promise I will try that on one of my future mixes.

[WildHoney]

Originally Posted by milaszewski

I could do that. I'll try that one day. But that will involve reducing the dynamic range of tracks that were already recorded. Right now, at this point, I think of it as an additional unnecessary digital operation. But I promise I will try that on one of my future mixes.

FWIW, simply trimming down the levels of your tracks doesn't reduce your dynamic range. i.e. if the original range of your acoustic guitar track went from, say -50dBFS to -1dBFS, you have 49db of dynamic range in that track. If you trim it down -12db, your range is now -62dBFS to -13dBFS; still 49db of dynamic range.

Also, with you 100% that it'd be great to have an option for meters to be switchable b/w displaying dBFS or dBu. But for me, I'd rather have my inserted plug-ins operating with a proper input gain (particularly analog modeled plugs. . . ) than have a more comfortable visual display.